Masculinity and Gen Z Boys - Cumberland Lodge

Resource type: Webinar

A thought-provoking discussion recorded on 28 June 2024, exploring the evolving landscape for Gen Z boys.

Recent studies show significant divergence in views on gender among young people (16-19 years). While many Gen Zs embrace progressive beliefs, a considerable number of young men still feel pressured to conform to traditional roles and behaviours such as stoicism and being the breadwinner. In a recent survey, one in five men overall said it’s harder to be a man than a woman today (emerging-tensions.pdf, kcl.ac.uk). This tension can be heightened by online content, commonly known as the ‘manosphere’, promoting more aggressive masculinity.

Despite these pressures, Gen Z is at the forefront of redefining masculinity to be more inclusive and emotionally expressive. Social media and pop culture also has a pivotal role to play in promoting these trends, supporting young men to value vulnerability and empathy as key aspects of manhood.

Our panel includes:

Daniel Guinness, Managing Director at Beyond Equality – an organisation supporting men and boys to develop healthier identities and behaviours through conversation
Kirsty Ruthven, Head of Education at Lifting Limits – an organisation developing a whole-school approach to gender equality through education and voices from the youth

Cumberland Lodge · Masculinity And Gen Z Boys

Webinar transcript

00:00 – 00:20

Munny Purba (MP)

Welcome everyone, to our webinar on the evolving landscape of masculinity for Gen Z boys. My name is Munny and I am the Programme Officer here at Cumberland Lodge. If you are new to our organisation, we are an educational charity and social enterprise dedicated to empowering young people to lead the conversation around social division.

00:20 – 00:46

Today, we are exploring a topic that is not only timely, but crucial for understanding the future dynamics of gender equality. Social norms and societal roles. Joining us today, we have two esteemed guests Dan Guinness, the managing director of Beyond Equality, an organisation fostering healthier identities and behaviours in men and boys through conversation and Kirsty Ruthven, the Head of Education at Lifting Limits,

00:46 – 01:28

which integrates gender equality into the curriculum, ethos and routines of schools. If you are joining us live, hello, and please feel free to send in your questions using the Q&A function, and we’ll try to answer as many as we can in this next hour. So just to fit this in a little bit on this subject. So there’s been a significant spotlight on this topic in recent weeks, highlighted by the Channel Four documentary How to Be a Man, featuring Danny Dyer, and the BBC Radio Four series About the Boys, both of which engage in conversations with young boys about their fears and worries as they navigate this ever changing world, often feeling pressured to

01:28 – 02:04

conform to certain stereotypes and behaviours. In addition to that, recent research from Ipsos and King’s College London has highlighted a significant gender divide among young people, the youngest in the generations, and their perceptions of feminism, masculinity, and gender equality. One key finding is that while a larger proportion of young men aged 16 to 29 believe it’s harder to be a woman today and that feminism has done more good than harm, a consistent minority ranging from one fifth to one third, hold opposing views.

02:04 – 02:33

For instance, 3 in 10 young men think it will be harder to be a man than a woman in 20 years, and 1 in 6 men in this age group believe feminism has done more harm than good. These views are in stark contrast with those of young women in the same age group. This divergence is striking as it breaks the usual gender and generational patterns, where younger cohorts tend to be more progressive and unified in their views on social norms.

02:33 – 03:03

This polarisation suggests a dynamic interaction between feminist advocacy and evolving notions of masculinity, highlighting how discussions around gender equality are shaping young men’s perceptions and societal norms within this generation. So I hope that our discussion today aims to delve deeper into these findings and understand the underlying causes of all of this. So I think let’s dive into this really quite broad, large and important topic.

03:03 – 03:17

with asking you both Kirsty and Dan. What are some of the common causes or themes that you’ve encountered in your work with boys regarding masculinity today?

03:17 – 03:57

Kick off whoever wants to start, over to you.

Kirsty Ruthven (KR)

I’m happy to.

Daniel Guinness (DG)

Please go for it, Kirsty. Yeah.

Please. Please.

Thanks. Funny. yeah. So I my background is as a primary school teacher, and we work predominantly at Lifting Limits with primary schools and early years settings. And I think what we’re noticing more and more around masculinities is, how much younger these conversations are kind of happening with children and how important it is that we we start these conversations young and in self, you know, safe environment, supportive environment.

03:57 – 04:21

So, one example I’ve got that I was talking to a school really recently was around football, and a lot of my job is talking about football. I never knew this when I, when I started this role four years ago. So, you know, schools are coming from really good places where they say, oh, we really want to raise the profile of football with with girls.

04:21 – 04:41

So what we’re going to do is we’re going to stop boys from playing football on a Friday. I’m going to make it a girls day. And as I say, that’s coming. That’s coming from a good place from from the teachers. But quite often for boys, that can be their first taster of, of equality and, and supporting girls.

04:41 – 05:20

And for that to happen, what they’ve done is, is lost out on something. So they were allowed to play football every day of the week. And, and now they’re being told, oh, you know, to let the girls play. We need to we need to give up a day for that. So it’s really interesting having those conversations around how masculinities might be present in even as young as, as primary schools and that actually educators, parents, they’re all asking for help saying, you know, we want to support the boys in our lives in a healthy and supportive way.

05:20 – 05:43

But, you know, we’re not we feel like the tide is kind of against us and we’re not really sure how to do that.

Thank you. Yeah. So I think, like you said there, is the conversation around having something taken away from them, giving the space to to girls and, and how they fare in that, in that kind of discussion.

05:43 – 06:19

Perfect. Thank you. Dan, did you want to take on this the concerns that you’re you’re experiencing talking to boys?

Yeah, I certainly do. And I’m going to say your introduction was really, wide ranging but like so precise. So thank you very much for that. And, also for Kirsty if you bring in and just like such a simple example of the ways in which, a well-intentioned, step towards equality or equity of any variety, can actually be interpreted by other groups of people as being, you know, something that they’re losing and setting up this narrative.

06:19 – 06:58

In fact, I’ll correct myself reinforcing this idea and this narrative that it is a zero-sum game and that it’s, women feminism against the men and against the boys. And, so one one of the strands that I want to pick up on is that there is this presence, very, yeah, very concentrated in certain parts of the, of the internet, but also wide ranging and in other parts about media and other parts of society, all of media, and have a really powerful narrative that, things have changed.

06:58 – 07:27

The boys used to have a fair go and they’ve kind of lost out. And, I mean, Kirsty’s picked up an example of the way that might be like getting reinforced within, within schools, within primary schools. And what we’re seeing is that even if we go forward and we pick up the other end of of Gen Z and you’re in the workplace now, those conversations are also, happening around in those spaces where, hey, you’ve got some older men who feel a bit, a bit confused and a bit lost about where things are going.

07:27 – 07:55

But you also have some younger men entering the workplace and worried about what sort of career prospects might be there for them. And again, that this isn’t because there aren’t career prospects there for them. There certainly are. But it’s because they’ve picked up on that idea that, that’s getting pushed pretty hard by certain people, that equality is actually an attack on men, an attack on them, an attack on their place,

07:55 – 08:20

an attack on merit. You know, I mean, we see this narrative, you know, be be driven by people like Elon Musk at the moment and more broadly around the right, because some very, very strong, powerful voices that are pushing a very simplistic picture here about, actually what’s going on. I, I, thinking about other influences is really important to pick up.

08:20 – 08:59

And I got a long time to talk. So I’ll stop after this. But the other one to look at with those teenaged boys is actually trying to step into their shoes and understand where they’re at in their lives and what’s going on. One important part of this picture is if you look at, if you take a, cognitive development lens or, any child development lens, you look at like what stages people go through those teenage years, some of the really vital things are developing of the skills of, of empathy and connection building up like a stronger sense of who you are in relation to other people, in relation to community and for young

08:59 – 09:29

men, I mean, there’s a difference, often between, male and female, for example, timelines with those developments and what can be happening for young men here is that they’re very insecure. They’re for the first time trying to position themselves as being part of a group. They’re confused about what’s going on. They’re told that there’s all sorts of, all sorts of ideas they’ve got to conform to, they’re like, you’ve got to be the tough guy, the strong guy.

09:29 – 10:12

You can’t show weakness or emotion or the in many places. Don’t be the person who’s involved in school too much because that’s going to, you know, that’s for women or that’s for people who are silent for now, community, you know, maybe, maybe for middle class Londoners or something like this. So don’t do that activity and instead, like go and put all your eggs in this other basket and in that development, developmental stage, both socially and cognitively, those young people look to those sorts of simple solutions of like, maybe if I just jump into that box, that picture, I can protect myself.

10:12 – 10:37

And so what I’m painting for you there is really when you have this socialisation of, of young people. So they understand and recognise a narrow version of masculinity, it can be very appealing for them to try to adhere to that and conform to that and perform that, more importantly, actually perform that to their peers for social acceptance.

10:37 – 11:04

And actually having a sense of value and worth and who they are and the consequences of that plays out really differently for different boys. And there’s there’s a whole wide range of experiences that, you know, that we should be alert from, influenced by culture, influenced by sexuality, by personality, by, you know, how confident someone is by their their past personal history, you know, around relationships or all these sorts of things vitally important.

11:04 – 11:28

But there are some of these broader structural forces that are at play that we should be really alert to that are coming, and influencing young boys and continue to influence people as they leave that that childhood and adolescence, become adults, enter into the workforce, you know, have families of their own or not.

Great. So, yeah, a really, it’s a social pressure, a peer pressure.

11:28 – 11:49

And like you said, the the idea of having to fit into this box that society thinks is the only way you can be a man and, and that that’s tricky for different sorts of, of, of boys and men, as you said there Dan. Not everyone is going to be able to do that because they, they don’t feel that that really connects with them and they don’t feel aligned to that.

11:49 – 12:17

So yeah, that’s that’s really interesting. And, and also the idea that we need to reinforce, not reinforce the idea that, gender equality of feminism is against them. But really, you know, a hopefully a supportive way to really help everyone.

And it’s that’s such an important linking those two things is so important because, yes, let me point out that with, say, the box says there’s an expectation that you’ll heterosexual, right?

12:17 – 12:59

That’s so damaging to a young gay or bi or questioning boy, certainly. It can also be really damaging for the straight boy. And there’s so much lost by people when they try to force themselves into those boxes. So whether or not they go in easily, so much of our emotional life, our interest, our hobbies, our relationships, our conviction, our ability to perform well in schools, or or work or whatever else, that all of those, decreased by trying to force ourselves into something that we’re not and something that’s often structured in really harmful ways for, for society in general.

12:59 – 13:30

Here we’re talking about the influence of the broader structures of patriarchy and other discriminations, and also on the individuals who actually try to follow those and conform to those. So those two are linked. And if we can, if we start to be able to help boys and understand actually the costs for them and also recognise the consequences of their actions on the people around them, typically women and girls and marginalised genders, then we’ll start to see some progress.

13:30 – 13:55

And we do. I mean, Kirsty, you can speak to the progress that that, you know, you see and that we see in our workshops. And when you’re given that space to that sort of work.

Yeah. And I think if we think about the comment that that has been made by Colin, in the question and answer, the idea that we have femininity in masculinity, but seem to have feminism without the masculine alternative.

13:55 – 14:25

If we think back to the idea of feminism in its early stages was about gender equality in general, and not just for women, you know, gaining rights and, and as society moves forward, as women are gaining more rights, perhaps, not to leave behind men as well as women for the progression in all ways, in all sorts of ways, in terms of mental health, in terms of support when it comes to changes in, in the work, the workplace.

14:25 – 14:51

So it’s about reframing what we think these words mean, perhaps, and actually understanding that positive connections and working together to build foundations could be the way forward. So yeah. Thank you. I wonder if we can think about because I did mention at the start the idea that there’s quite a divide between the younger generations on the idea of masculinity and gender equality.

14:51 – 15:33

I wonder if you can think about what you think might be causing. We touched on it a little bit there, but what do you think might be causing that divide and that polarisation between that generation?

Yeah. Well, well, as a teacher, you can probably guess I’m going to trump for education. I think it’s really, really interesting when you look at, as like our educational institutions and, and what they’re, what the outcomes for boys are within them We know from various points of education that, girls will generally outperform boys.

15:33 – 16:00

And, and that starts right in the, in the earliest years through primary, through secondary, and then eventually with kind of university take up. So I think, when you look at those kind of outcomes and then when you mix that in with a challenging economic landscape, you can then you get those, you get people forced to the, to the edges and you get that, that polarisation.

16:00 – 16:25

So if, a lot of boys and young men, are thinking I’m worried about my future prospects, you know, this is this is tough. This is challenging for me. Then that might then push them, as Dan was so brilliantly saying, you know, to, these, these boxes that once you’re in them, it’s really, really hard to push against them and to escape.

16:25 – 16:45

So, so for me, it’s it’s education in general is not just about kind of educating around equalities. It’s actually making sure that we’re not doing a disservice to boys, that we’re not starting with the deficit model of saying, oh, there’s something wrong with boys. We’re actually thinking, well, what’s wrong with these institutions? What’s wrong with us as teachers?

16:45 – 17:21

In that, you know, some boys are going through that whole kind of educational careers and we’re failing them. So that that’s not the only reason, but that’s that’s something I feel really passionate about.

Yeah, definitely. And I think, going back to that piece of research with Ipsos and King’s College, that was also something that was pointed out that a lot of those who took part in that didn’t recognise that, actually, boys fared worse off than in women and girls when it comes to education attainment, as well as university and placements.

17:21 – 17:51

So it’s really, again, like you said, having an education about these things and understanding the structural and systemic things that are going on that then may lead to that polarisation. Yeah. Really interesting. Dan, I wondered if you had anything to say on that one.

Yeah. Well, I, I think some of the structural, there’s some structural factors that we can look at, you know, and there’s some systemic outcomes that are coming at the end of those.

17:51 – 18:30

And I think some of the the data that you were referring to Munny was like, yeah, like it’s so interesting the way that it highlights this like a broad variety of different problems. Right? At the same time, what we need to recognise is that there’s actually quite a few different stories, within those statistics, and that some looks like a whole variety of different stories here within like statistics, different outcomes for different cohorts of boys and, and and, and girls and people of marginalised genders.

18:30 – 18:51

And some of the boys have actually fared much better under the new systems and new educational structures than they might have done previously. I think sometimes that can be like a bit of a knee jerk reaction to those things and said, oh, actually, what’s happening is all boys performed really well when there was like a huge weighting on test, and there was nothing else except for just this final exam.

18:51 – 19:25

And you know, the world mattered just based on that and, you know, perhaps some much better there, but some fared much worse and some some fare much better with much more attention and focus. And I think like the core of, really the solution for this, this problem is to say, let’s not look for very simple, abstracted solutions, but rather let’s look for educational systems that can provide multiple different opportunities for different young people who learn in different ways and which is going to require investment.

19:25 – 19:56

It’s going to require teachers being given, different, different training and different skills and, and possibly being able to like, work with more off and work with particular cohorts of people. But again, it’s going to need more resourcing and actually just placing like a whole bunch more value on the work there of educators and teachers, because what’s happening on the other side of that, well, in the current state of things, tends to be that this problem is identified.

19:56 – 20:22

Either there’s sort of a kneejerk, simplistic solution of like, you know, like I said, you know, change the education system. It’s unfair. And boys, you know, full stop or get the teachers to do more work like they should, the people who just explain all of this complex social, social conditioning that people are experiencing. And instead we need to actually provide a more holistic, systemic thing, bringing in experts who do different parts of that work.

20:22 – 20:51

I mean, such as such as my organisation or Kirsty and and other people and and yourself. Right. So that’s really important. And we need to be doing that education work in ways that actually resonate with the different young people. So what we’re seeing working, you know, across the UK and actually outside of the UK as well, is that the polarisation that exists

20:51 – 21:35

is felt differently by different groups of people, really differently by different groups of people. For, for some people, for some groups of people, it’s felt in relation to, for, in relation to their class identity and their feeling of, of recognising that their particular area, region, the industries that the, you know, their families have been involved in for a long time have not had that social investment or financial investment, and have been excluded from development plans and, and all sorts of other things for, for many years.

21:35 – 21:58

And there’s been some lifelines that have been thrown to, well, that have been typically picked up by young women within those communities and less so by the men in those communities. And so there can be this is association of that feeling of polarisation in relation to those really big structural things and that are based on our social and economic history.

21:58 – 22:49

And the particular position that, you know, that community might feel and that can be a really different sort of feeling of polarisation say from, another group of young, young boys that we might encounter who, actually feel like, can feel more threatened by the conversations that have been around sexual harassment. And, I mean, there’s a few different groups of people here you might have, one group would be the young men who, are a long way from even starting to form relationships, with people that barely dip their toes into any form of flirting or connection or conversation, and yet they see things or they’ve seen things over the last

22:49 – 23:12

few years. And then there’s been some really big public discourse conversations that have been crucial in raising awareness about, the levels of harassment that exist against women and girls in our society. So they’ve seen those things, and they’ve recognised that it is men doing those things and been vocalised that this is men’s violence against women and girls, and they’ve really struggled to understand their part within that picture.

23:12 – 23:36

And to separate them is an individual who’s not yet formed their, you know, their relationship skills, let alone, I mean, possibly in the sense of sexuality, let alone actually done any, any harm to the to to women and girls. They struggle to understand how they are disconnected from like, these broader ideas that normalise or motivate or excuse that violence.

23:36 – 24:01

And so that there’s that sense of disgruntlement where they’ve sat in an assembly being given by their school, and they’ve, they’ve heard the words and felt a very personal attack. They’ve been online and heard, and all sorts of figures frame this for them as an attack on them as an individual and as like woke madness or whatever it might be.

24:01 – 24:28

And they’ve accepted that, and they’ve taken that forward as a way that actually emotionally helps them get past, that disconnect that they feel with, with that, that really hard to capture and hard to understand truth that that sadly, the, their female classmates are quite likely in the future, unless we make drastic changes in our society, they are quite likely to face harassment

24:28 – 25:10

on the streets as they’re walking, you know, or they’re using public transport, or perhaps in workplaces or perhaps in their family life. So I, I’m just pointing out here, I mean, those are just a few examples of, say, like a class based, economic based, form of feeling of, marginalisation and exclusion, not having a place in the future to one where it’s being felt more around relationships and these really big discourses about sexual harassment, which have been crucial in pushing things forward but sometimes haven’t been comprehended by young people that haven’t quite been given that space to have a proper conversation about how this consent, or this conversation about harassment relates

25:10 – 25:42

to them and relates to their relationships that they’re going to have. And then just those are just two possible of of dozens and dozens of different positions that young men and boys have in feeling towards, all these topics. And the only last, last thing I’m going to say, there is plenty, plenty of young men and boys that we, have in our sessions, actually, you see them just come to come to life and love the opportunity to talk really actively about how much they want to change these things as well.

25:42 – 26:10

So you’ve got a big group of young men and boys who are passionate about gender equality, or about preventing gender based violence, and see themselves as a really big part of that. You know, don’t have that sense of awkwardness or alienation in that issue. So anyway…

No, you’re very right in saying that. It’s a very nuanced discussion, and I think it’s really easy to put all men and boys and people in general, for that matter, in one box and really homogenise them.

26:10 – 26:30

But actually, there’s so many different factors at play here that the social factors, economic factors, as you say, class-based issues. And I think, you know, we need to be looking at those individually and really creating changes and programs that affect those young people in the way that they can use it and take it away with the most.

26:30 – 26:52

And as you say, that group that you mentioned that end up in your program and your work that you do, there is a large proportion of young boys who want to be the change, who want to be part of change, and I think that can’t be minimised. Actually, that should be talked about much more than it actually is, because I think a lot of it is to do with representation as well.

26:52 – 27:13

And I think that actually really nicely, nicely takes me to the next point around the social context and, and a little bit of around social media and how that can play into this discussion as well. And, and I think we had a question about that too. How do you find that social media is adding maybe negatively but also positively to this discussion?

27:14 – 27:34

And how can we, what sort of strategies can be used to negate, the, you know, the negative comments and things like that?

Yeah. Well, I just to start this off, I just want to pick up on Dan’s point really about these, you know, these individual stories. And I think that really relates well to social media, that it is nuanced.

27:34 – 27:57

I know it’s really easy to make these sweeping statements like any problem in the world. Oh, it’s all it’s all down to social media. And I don’t want to, minimise the some of the effects that social media does have. But I, I want to talk about quite a balanced view. I know lots of young people who who feel better connected because of social media.

27:57 – 28:17

They find their tribe on social media. And that’s that’s a really you know, if you’re an isolated young person, for whatever reason, you know, if that brings you kind of positivity and hope and it’s done in a healthy way, then I think that’s that’s really, really positive. But of course, we do know there’s the other end of the, of the spectrum.

28:17 – 28:43

And, what we’re seeing with very young children is, as much as platforms, say from 13 or 15 or 16 or whatever. We know that really young children at primary school are accessing platforms and as, as Dan said, they they’re seeing these conversations before maybe they’re even developmentally kind of at that point and thinking, well, where do I sit in in this?

28:43 – 29:25

So, so that’s interesting to hear what kind of content young people are interacting with. Also, a lot of our work in primary schools is around critical thinking, just in general, but also applying that to social media. And thinking about, well, you know, if I’ve, if facts of fact versus fiction, you know, if I’ve seen it, if it actually happened, do I know anyone in my life who’s that has happened to, not to say that it’s not happening somewhere, but if you know, you’re constantly looking at these videos and then you’re more and more are coming your way, you might start thinking, oh, this is a real this is a real

29:25 – 29:57

issue. Or actually, it’s it’s a small issue for someone somewhere, but it’s just been really, really blown up. So, yeah, I think it’s it’s interesting around the response, some schools are doing fantastic work and educators doing great work about navigating and negotiating social media because of course, people, you know, I didn’t grow up with it, but we’re we’re now having to kind of give young people the tools to navigate it and live with it and have it as part of, of their lives.

29:57 – 30:27

So, but yeah, I just wanted to again, emphasise that nuance around, you know, there’s good, good versus bad that is so easy to fall into. when we’re talking about these things.

Thank you. Yeah, definitely. I think, it’s hard to, as you say, there’s so much out there, there’s so much that we’re we can’t even being fed through algorithms and things like that, that we don’t necessarily want to watch ourselves, but we can’t help it.

30:27 – 30:54

We’re seeing it on a daily basis. And so that can inform the way we think about certain things without us even, you know, taking our time and forming our views, you know, through educated, means so it can be negative, but it also there are many positive things around it. But I wonder, Dan, if you had anything to add on, on, on on that topic around social media and, and and also some representation and role modelling as well.

30:54 – 31:17

I think that’s really key thing to mention here.

Thanks Munny. Yeah. One of the things I would say that, well, that we always say to our facilitators is that coming to those conversations is, you know, don’t be afraid of talking to young people about the particular, whether it’s about whatever Andrew Tate says or about other people. Right.

31:17 – 31:34

Because part of the the narrative is there and it’s being pushed is sort of this conspiracy theory that this truth is so powerful that it’s just going to cut through and the only way that people the only way that the powers that be ie teachers can stop it is by telling you not to talk about it. Right.

31:34 – 31:54

So not to be afraid of having that conversation in the right moment at the right time, obviously. But really and I think speaking of what you’re saying, Kirsty, allow yourself to have some of that critical questioning of like, okay, well, let’s let’s bring this in mind. If we actually play through that idea that’s being presented there, then what are the consequences of that?

31:55 – 32:17

Those are consequences that you would really like? You know, so I mean, we’ve had some we’ve had some things here around relationships and, you know, probably not surprisingly, Andrew Tate had some really awful advice about relationships. Right? Which is very, you know, can sometimes be framed as a joke or whatever else, but it can be taken seriously by young people.

32:17 – 32:43

It is taken seriously by many young people. And then if you can actually get beneath the surface, they don’t want to live in a world where that’s true, right? Especially they wouldn’t want to be one of the friends who’s a woman living in a world where this is the way that you have to treat. And you can get that sort of work pretty get get through the work of, getting beneath some of these lies or these pictures, that have been painted fairly, fairly well with young people.

32:43 – 33:19

And just bearing in mind as well that, we’ve moved past the point with Andrew Tate where, he was some sort of magic hero that all young people were fascinated by. That that moment is gone. And there’s a group of people who a small group of people who very much like what he’s saying in particular. A much more sizable proportion, you say, would say something like, okay, most of the stuff he says is like purely trying to antagonise or get attention or whatever else.

33:19 – 33:36

But this part of it resonates with me. Like, I particularly like I really like the bit says about, you know, working hard and going to the gym and that being important, that that sort of thing can resonate. And there’s a lot of people who, a lot of boys we talk to actually have a very different attitude altogether.

33:36 – 34:04

And it’s like, that’s always been terrible and quite happy to pick it apart. So there’s that scope there. More broadly than that and that particular instance or character, there’s work on actually understanding where I’m information comes from and which parts that we can trust and maybe where we can go to fact check things. So some basic digital literacy and awareness, is really vital.

34:04 – 34:29

Part is a vital part of education today because as has been pointed out by both of you, this is the world that we’re living in, right? And this is the world that young people are born into. So we’ve got to we’ve got to provide spaces where we can learn how to navigate it better. And so they also can be learning those lessons and, and picking up a whole bunch of tools to, yeah, to move through that world of social media.

34:29 – 34:54

We do have an opportunity. And there are there are certainly some examples of men who are stepping into this space and trying to provide really positive role models. And that’s going to be like a vital counteraction to some of the terrible influences who are there at the moment. So hopefully more and more of that starts to grow.

34:54 – 35:13

And, yeah. I’m always excited when, when these people pop up or, you know, when someone releases a book or a documentary and, it’s great to see more and more people from like, quite varied backgrounds, more and more men from quite varying backgrounds, recognising that, you know what, we can talk about this stuff because it’s harming us.

35:13 – 35:49

It’s in our society, it’s harming our families. you know, whatever their point of reference is.

Yeah. I think you’re very right in saying that that exactly like you said, the role modelling. I think the people there that can talk to those issues that they’re facing and, and talk about them in a way that they can resonate with, but that also people that they look up to, in any sort of way, in any sort of sector, and even, you know, within their families, I think role modeling is really an essential thing that we should be investing more time in when thinking about young boys and their futures, when it comes to,

35:49 – 36:11

engaging in, you know, healthy conversations on this topic. And I also just wanted to pick up on your point there, Dan, about how certain figures, although they may not, kind of talk to all the issues that young boys are facing, or maybe these boys don’t agree with everything that they’re talking about, but there are certain bits of what they’re saying and certain parts of the conversation that they do resonate with.

36:12 – 36:40

And I think an an interesting kind of piece of research or a bit of work that needs to be done, is really understanding those trends that potentially are being missed and some boys need some support on and where they’re finding that in certain role models that, yeah, maybe negative.

It’s a lovely way framing it right. Like, what are these things where young men and boys do need support, that we can actually step in because misogynists shouldn’t happen locally on self-development.

36:40 – 37:16

Right? We’ve we’ve got a better set of solutions. And we need to be also helping, young men and boys access those.

Yeah, sure. Sorry, Kirsty, did you want to add something there?

Just having a coughing fit, but, But, yeah, I think, I think it’s as cliched as it sounds. It’s about reclaiming the space and and and making sure that this, you know, that these positive voices and, and these positive role models have just as much of a platform as, as, as Dan said, this misogynistic content.

37:16 – 37:42

Yeah. That, that that isn’t as easy to, to cut through as, yeah, as it has been maybe in recent times.

Yeah. And I think, we’ve had a comment again from Colin from the Q&A asking about the idea of role modelling being positive. But, you know, the rhetoric in the narrative around young men is particularly when it’s bad.

37:42 – 38:02

How do male public figures put their head above the parapet? And I think, I suppose that is a definitely a point that we need to focus on. How can men feel empowered to talk about these things and really get through and all that kind of information that we don’t know whether it’s true or not? And the lies that possibly being said through certain means.

38:02 – 38:31

But I also wonder if we can think about how education can play a crucial role in reshaping, that that narrative around young men, and that how that can be core tactic and strategy in doing so, and how teachers can maybe be empowered to do that as well.

I, I, I think Colin’s question is, is vitally important.

38:31 – 39:18

And it points at like, it points at this barrier which is sitting there, which is actually stopping so many really well-intentioned and quite influential potentially men stepping in and making a contribution like. One of the things that we do is, is work with men in particular, who are in, we’ve got to workplaces, programs are working with senior leaders, we’ve got our male allyship network program, and it takes them through like, actually, that, initial stage of self-reflection, so that they can understand what their role is within this picture and they can understand, like, okay, I can be putting myself out there, but not needing to be the saviour who’s got

39:18 – 39:48

all the solutions. I could a different form of role modelling, right? Like if there is someone is making a contribution, I can be someone who’s there, collaboratively, like supporting other people, adding my voice. or doing things quietly in the background so that people know, like, oh, you’re involved. And I can also be involved here. I can be somebody, who’s using my influence to, like, reduce those barriers to other people stepping forward.

39:48 – 40:15

And I think really crucially, I can be someone that’s learning, making mistakes sometimes, but also able to step in and apologise and change my behaviour. And partly here we’ve got this issue of cancel culture where, you know, people can get written off. But I think that’s actually the fear of that’s blown up far more than actually the reality of it.

40:15 – 40:43

And I’ve seen plenty of people, go further in their career after being cancelled than they did beforehand. Right. So it’s it’s I would want to go through that, but it’s not it’s not actually maybe going to occur. And the other key fallacy there is that to speak out on something and to be actioning things, or at least collaborating on them, you need to be perfect yourself.

40:43 – 41:03

I mean, I, I certainly am not, nor have I ever been the perfect embodiment of what men and boys could be or should be, right? And in fact, like I’m recognising things in myself in the way that I, I might I might need to change how I interact in the workplace or interact or, you know, in my life beyond that all the time.

41:03 – 41:23

And that’s really healthy and that’s really valuable. Right? So but often men are told that if you fail even a little bit at something, you are a complete failure. This is one of those block things that that keeps on getting shoved at us. You know, any failure is complete failure, and you can’t have it. You shouldn’t show it.

41:23 – 41:48

So overall, like, what we find is that when you can actually take men through this process where they’re doing some of this work and understanding themselves and really feeling more empowered to step out of that box themselves, and they also understand the influence they have in different ways soft influence, hard influence, you know, collaboratively influence that are able to be more empowered to actually do the important work,

41:48 – 42:19

as Colin said, put the head up above the parapet and say something or do something that can be profoundly impactful and shift and really shift these outcomes for, for boys. And then from that, outcomes for people more broadly.

Yeah, I really support that kind of human centred approach that that Dan’s just explained there and that we, you know, that there’s there’s lots of there’s lots of right ways to do the right thing.

42:19 – 42:42

And we we shouldn’t let that fear of failure hold, you know, hold any of us back. I think it’s really important to, to, you know, to be role modelling that to children at the earliest stages as well. Quite often the conversations we have with, with very young children is around look, you know, we don’t have, you know, teachers don’t always have the answers.

42:43 – 43:08

So, you know, let’s try and figure some of this out together. So I think, I think that’s, that’s really, really important to, to, to put forward because, yeah, as Dan said, you know, no one, no one needs to put themselves up there on a, on a plinth and say, you know, I’m absolute I’m absolute perfection here. I’ve got a 13-year-old son at home and we’ve had some humdingers around the, the kitchen table.

43:08 – 43:31

I have to tell you, we’ve had some very strong debates recently, and I do this as a job and I still don’t have all the comebacks and all the research at my fingertips to to settle arguments at home. But the important thing is we are having those discussions. It’s open. It’s not always pretty, but, you know, my son knows he can.

43:31 – 43:56

He can talk to me about these things, and we can explore the answers together. And I think that is one of the most vital things in this work.

There’s that container for that conversation, right? There’s that trust, there’s that relationship. It’s. Yeah. Which is fantastic. And it’s what, you know, so many more young boys need and a whole variety of places in their life.

43:56 – 44:28

I mean, obviously with fantastic parents like you, you know, you happen to have this job, but also, wouldn’t it be great if they were having some more of those conversations, you know, with people, at school or in the clubs they’re part of or, you know, whatever it might be. It’s it’s important.

Yeah. And then I think that’s kind of one of the, the questions I was going to mention is about how parents, can be supported to encourage, young boys and men to feel comfortable with having these conversations.

44:28 – 44:47

And actually, when there are challenges around not wanting to be vulnerable or, you know, with conversations around empathy and things like that, how can they best be supported? And I think, as you mentioned there, it doesn’t have to just come from one place. You know, we shouldn’t just be looking at schools as spaces for these conversations or just the home.

44:47 – 45:14

It really just needs to be this holistic approach, to, you know, helping young people in general. But young boys and men, especially around feeling like they do have space for these conversations. So I wonder then, if anyone kind of wanted to do this work, wanting to work with their students or children, how can they be helped?

45:14 – 45:49

Or what strategies could they could you help give them, if they are facing challenges with helping, their young men and boys to be, you know, involved in these conversations about empathy or being vulnerable?

Yeah. Well, I think, what we’ve touched on already is about, you know, one of the biggest ways to invite someone to be vulnerable is to is to show that yourself, so that they know, you know, and it might take some time.

45:49 – 46:11

It’s not always a quick fix, but, you, you know, you put yourself out there as an individual as well. It’s it’s really it’s really powerful because people often reflect that back and think, oh, you know, this is a safe place for me to to show this as well. And I think, a lot of the times, you know, we, we sometimes start these conversations in the wrong place.

46:11 – 46:32

We’re kind of like, oh, what are you watching? What have you been looking on social media? You know, sometimes it’s just like, oh, you know, what are you interested in at the moment? You know, anything worrying you? It’s some, you know, those direct questions aren’t always the best way of, getting people to to open up.

46:32 – 46:52

And I think, yeah, sometimes it is just about listening, listening for the right time. And, you know, you know, that that small talk can be small talk always leads to the big talk. You’ve got to put you’ve got to put the work in. So, you know, but I’m certainly not an expert on teenagers I feel like at the moment.

46:52 – 46:57

But yeah, just a few ideas that came to mind.

46:57 – 47:25

I mean, I’ll, the advice that we would give within a parent, or a teacher training around like, hey, what’s like the fundamental thing to approach here and the, the first thing is like, don’t treat them like the enemy. Right. And the second thing is actually make efforts to understand where they’re coming from and realise that if they’re behaving in a certain way or have an attitude, it’s because that is the framework that they’re getting from around them.

47:25 – 47:48

Like these thoughts, these belief structures, these things they think are true, that’s helping them understand their experiences. And that might be like, you know, the the what they’ve see and hear. And, you know, I have going on to them the fears that might be having, you know, or the insecurities or the joy or excitement or whatever else. Right.

47:48 – 48:20

So there’s those frameworks. They’re they’re not coming out of nowhere. Right? So if you can try to get at that, that’s really important. And for us the approach to get there is, well, start off by actually being positive. You know, make sure you’re coming in with empathy. Yeah. So recognise that if, if you are challenging someone who’s a person’s idol, that might be scary or uncomfortable or upsetting for them, and then have that curiosity.

48:20 – 48:45

And I think this is what, Kirsty was, was emphasising so much, you know, like getting to ask those questions about what’s actually happening in their life, like, where is that coming from, you know, who is it? What is it to be them as a person? Because the reality is all young people are different and they’re changing all the time as they try to mould themselves into someone that fits into this, this complicated world we live in.

48:45 – 49:09

And even if they’re your child or someone that looks like you and you think they come from a very similar background, I think we need to come with that curiosity just to actually understand the fullness of who they are and where they’re coming from. So, all of that is a general direction, and my, the only other bit of advice would be get some support from other people around you.

49:09 – 49:27

You don’t need to go alone. You know, there’s there’s experts who work on this. There’s books, there’s podcasts like this. There’s other parents who are interested in having these conversations. Like maybe you can meet up for a coffee, coffee after the school run and have a chat about, like, how is this going with your kids? And I know you’re doing that anyway.

49:27 – 50:00

Maybe. But, those sorts of things can be really valuable.

Yeah. Great. That’s, it’s really important to think about the idea of curiosity, because I think without us really showing that we do care about what young people are saying, they won’t feel comfortable or safe or want to communicate. And it’s I think it’s even just being there for them to to feel like they have that opportunity to, if they want to, talk about things is really essential.

50:00 – 50:20

And often where there isn’t that space, there tends to be issues outside of of, you know, the situation because they that they’re having to bottle it in and be in that box that they don’t fit into. And it’s actually how to open that box up and how to be open that space for them there, for sure. We haven’t got much time left.

50:20 – 50:50

I could talk about this for, hours and hours, but I did want to end by asking you both for any kind of examples or scenarios that you have seen, in the work that you do, a really positive example of this sort of work or this sort of conversational space opening of space that has, has been, you know, fruitful and really led to some positive outcomes.

50:50 – 51:12

You know, what spring straight to mind is, we’ve done a lot of work with a particular school, and I, I don’t find them anywhere at a London based school. Over the past couple of years and, you know, for us, a big focus, a big focus for them of getting us in was dealing with issues around, some harassment and, and things that were happening at the school.

51:12 – 51:29

And then they’re aware of that. And so we’d ask them for a testimonial, you know, hey, we’ve finished this program, you know, now what the outcomes of being like, you know, and expected them to come back with something that was talking about the ways in which these conversations, we’d seen them shift in the classroom right from, like, arms crossed

51:29 – 51:50

to start with to boys who are actually engaged through thinking about how they were also part of relationships. And they were also part of this consent conversation. And they had a part of, like, dealing with some of these social injustices. But the testimonial we got back was, yeah, it was a great program run well on the staff.

51:50 – 52:16

Fantastic. You know, all that sort of stuff. But the most important thing from it was that, because of this, we found out about two boys who were thinking about self-harming and had never expressed this except for when they were given the chance to actually get outside of that narrow confines that they were put in and talk about what was going on in their lives.

52:16 – 52:50

Now, and for me, it cut through a lot. Not because that’s actually our work and maybe not, you know, we’re not out there, dealing, with, you know, this huge problem of self-harm and suicide. but just as it’s an example of, like, the space that’s needed for young people and young men and boys, maybe in particular, I don’t know, that young men and boys need that space, really, to talk and think and feel like they don’t have to conform to all this pressure that’s put upon them the whole time.

52:50 – 53:14

So that, to me, is like a really powerful example of the sort of work that, that we do with young people.
MP

And that’s really powerful, I think. And I think that’s such a good example, because it really took those, those bits of research that we, that we had earlier, you know, that is really personally addressing that and directly addressing that just by that space and that opportunity.

53:14 – 53:56

And I think the more that’s done, hopefully the more that those, you know, instances stop happening, because there is the chance to actually talk to someone about it. So yeah, really powerful. Thank you. Okay, Kirsty any examples that come to mind?

Yeah. Mine was just was similar to Dan’s it’s great, great to hear that example. Well we we ran our projects in in a few different, schools and, just the feedback from the children afterwards that some comments like, just loved having these conversations where we’re not when we bring this stuff up, sometimes we’re not really allowed to talk about it.

53:56 – 54:17

They already felt, at quite a young age, like, not that they were being shut down, but like, this was like a bit of a, you know, a bit of a naughty space. And maybe they weren’t allowed to ask these questions and say these things, and, so it was really good to to hear how positively these were received and how the teachers saw how vital it was.

54:17 – 54:46

And, and actually, as I was leaving one school, there was a couple of boys out at play and they shouted over, we really liked the lessons that you did, like across the playground. As I was leaving a thumbs up. And that was that was so nice to me. You know, hearing Dan’s example is a bit further along the pipeline and still, so vitally important, but that these boys were at the beginning of that, that journey.

54:46 – 55:06

And to see it so positively received and to to know that they could ask the questions and hope that that would carry on for them throughout their education, but also their working lives as well. That felt like it was a real the, you know, real positive change.

Yeah. And it also shows that this it can start as early as possible.

55:06 – 55:26

It doesn’t have to be, and actually shouldn’t be, at the point that these young boys don’t, you know, they have to close these conversations up and keep them in. The space should be started from a very, very young age. And and it’s great with the work that you’re doing, Kirsty, that that is, that is happening and those spaces are being created earlier on.

55:26 – 56:02

And I hope that continues. And, you know, we as a society start to understand that it’s not just, you know, a nice thing to have. It’s actually essential that we do this for the benefit of everyone. You know, often people talk about gender equality or feminism. They think it’s about women and and girls. And, you know, the patriarchy is bad for women and girls, but actually, there’s so many parts of of these, you know, both society and these topics that affect every single person, and that needs to be recognised by everyone before we actually can make some big changes.

56:02 – 56:20

And, and hopefully that does start to happen. We have a couple of minutes left. So I just want to know if you have any few, anything else you wanted to add or any any comments I wanted to make to finish off?

Just a brief welcome for me to thank you, first of all, it’s been really great to chat.

56:20 – 56:43

I think, you know, this whole webinar was built around that headline of, you know, Gen Z boys and I and I think we, you know, as much as the media loves to do these sweeping headlines, we, we we need to continually keep taking these with a pinch of salt. And that, as, as Dan was saying, there’s multiple stories and and truths within these big headlines and there’s lots of positive things as well.

56:43 – 57:05

So, I don’t think we do enough to really celebrate the great work that’s going on. And the really positive work around masculinity is that that is happening, which is so good.

Yeah. And there are some wonderful organisations doing some amazing things. And, and the more they’re celebrated, like you say, hopefully that work will get done and the changes will be made.

57:05 – 57:36

So thank you. Dan. any finishing points?

Yeah. And I mean I’ll, I’ll pick up on one of Kirsty’s points here. Which is really that, that human centred approach here of, we’re actually in the conversation about how can we actually support each, each individual human in our society to really flourish and grow and and be connected and, and find what they enjoy and, and how they can find worth and meaning in their life.

57:36 – 58:00

And there’s certain barriers there that around that are good around some of these experiences of being men at the moment, some of the pressures that, but if we take that intention through of actually, there’s nothing wrong with these men and boys that they’re wonderful, they’re going to be fantastic as long as we can actually give them that support and guidance as they grow and build up these skills.

58:00 – 58:20

And I think that’s just the and a lovely, lovely thing that Kirsty was hitting on.

And that’s a great way to end the webinar. Thank you Kirsty and Dan for being part of it. I think it was such a rich conversation and I think there’s lots, hopefully lots of things that our listeners watchers can take away.

58:20 – 58:49

And, anyone watching after the recording live, please do feel free, to look and look at all the wonderful work that Lifting Limits and Beyond Equality are doing, and lots of other organisations that are working around this topic of of supporting and helping young boys and men and people also, all people around feeling confident to speak on issues, vulnerabilities and and things like that.

58:49 – 58:55

So thank you again. And thank you everyone for watching.