Emerging Leaders - Lavinya Stennett: Black history in education

Resource type: Podcast

Lavinya is a writer, cultural educationalist, and Founder and CEO of The Black Curriculum, who work to teach and support the teaching of Black history, empowering all students with a sense of identity and belonging.

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Cumberland Lodge · Emerging Leaders – Lavinya Stennet: Black history in education

Episode transcript

00:00 – 00:37

Munny Purba (MP)

How do we hold onto a vision for change while meeting resistance at all levels? In this episode, Lavinya Stennett unpacks why Black history education deserves a permanent place in classrooms and beyond year-round. She discusses overcoming barriers to disrupting the English education system. Lavinya is a writer, cultural educationalist, and Founder and CEO of The Black Curriculum. She has won countless awards, has been featured in Vogue and GQ for her activism, and has finished writing her first book, Omitted.

00:37 – 00:59

Welcome to the episode! We’re so excited to have you on the podcast.

Lavinya Stennett (LS)

Thank you so much for having me.

Of course. And so I think we should just get straight into it and ask really about your motivations for becoming involved in this sort of work and the makings of the organisation that you’re the CEO of?

00:59 – 01:24

Okay so, in 2016 to 2019, I went and did an undergraduate degree at SOAS University, and my degree was in African Studies. It was not by choice, but it was something that once I started gaining more knowledge in, I understood how important it was for everybody to have this information and not just those who stumbled on SOAS accidentally or for those interested in Black history.

01:24 – 01:48

And for me, it wasn’t just the case of like, learning African history as it relates to the continent outside of Africa. It was about learning the links between Britain and Africa and Britain and the rest of the world, fundamentally if we’re really thinking about colonialism. So I was like, we need this for everyone, especially young people who may not even pursue a degree, because degrees are not the only ways to obtain knowledge and success in the world.

01:48 – 02:13

So after I went to New Zealand for a couple of months, I learned about Māori history, and I saw the way that they were engaging with colonial history, where legal matters relating to colonialism, like there were ongoing, very present, tangible ways that they were making resistance happen. And I felt that we needed to do the same. So, like, I came back to the UK really energised and assembled people that I was studying with together.

02:13 – 02:35

We were contacting schools, at the time I put in a grant for us to basically take a national approach to that issue. So we went into schools and that’s how The Black Curriculum started.

That’s really interesting. I think the fact that you took everything that you learned both at uni and then your experience elsewhere, to figure out that this was something so important to the UK is incredible.

02:35 – 02:57

Thank you. I guess like it’s only possible because we have schools that are receptive. We have parents that are receptive, we have young people that are eager to learn. And so I feel like it is, ultimately it’s a marriage that works because everybody wants it. So yeah, I’m happy about that.

Great. Well, there you talked a lot about what’s working and why it’s working, which really we should continue to be focused on.

02:57 – 03:20

Definitely. But for the purpose of this conversation, I think it would also be interesting to learn a bit about some of the barriers that you faced in implementing this in schools, and maybe some challenges.

When I think about challenges, challenges to me are I wouldn’t say like problems that contest the idea of what you’re doing, I think they are problems that contest the implementation of it.

03:20 – 03:39

So we have many people that have critiqued it from day one, like we’ve had headteachers that say like, you know, this will not work. I don’t see this as problems because I just think that’s just opinions. But I have seen that in terms of the implementation, it’s been very difficult, particularly as a startup social enterprise in the middle of COVID,

03:39 – 03:57

that was a huge barrier because obviously we couldn’t get into schools. And so we have to be really innovative and think about different ways of engaging parents and young people. And that’s where a lot of our digital work started and has kind of continued. So I would say that’s just the climate that we’re in. Limited budgets, sometimes no budgets.

03:57 – 04:17

A cost-of-living crisis has made it very difficult for us to make sure that the content that we’re delivering is accessible to all schools, and not just those that can afford it. And I would say that outside of that, like the external factors, some of the other factors have been a resistance. And I think that resistance is grounded in discomfort.

04:17 – 04:37

Many of the times in life, the fear of change, a fear of challenging yourself. And that has been moved, not a lot, but some of the learners that we’ve had in courses over the years. Yeah, sometimes I think a difficulty as an organisation as well, sustaining the level that we really want to teach at, because everybody is at different levels as well.

04:37 – 04:58

And I think that it’s due to, again, the miseducation has happened across the UK even before I was born and my mum was born. I think all of us have actually gone through miseducation and so everyone’s at different levels, and I think that has been very difficult for us to gauge where everyone is at and provide a learning that is, you know, radical, but also accessible to everybody.

04:58 – 05:16

And I think obviously this has been the most popular and common, I guess, form of resistance that we’ve had is from the government. I think everyone saw when we approached them in 2020, and we asked them to embed Black history in the curriculum and they literally came back, they wrote to us and said it’s not a priority and basically all the best.

05:16 – 05:33

And then in the same year, they issued guidance to say that schools should not be working with organisations that are pushing the agenda that white supremacy is a fact or white privilege is a fact. So on the one hand, you know, they want to stop the work, but on the one hand, they say you feel free to do what you’re doing.

05:33 – 05:56

So I would say like implementing has been on different terrains, very difficult. But we’ve managed to circumnavigate a lot of these issues because we’re still very young and agile.

I mean, it seemed like you said loads of different levels of resistance there. And, you know, governments as well as schools as well as just the basic level of understanding as to why this is even important, right?

05:56 – 06:18

Yeah.

And I think we can kind of sometimes still see those trends, unfortunately. But from what I can see, it seems to be going from success to success at the moment. So moving on then to actually the positives and the successes that you’ve seen, what would you say have been some of the most important and most striking successes that you’ve seen in the journey?

06:18 – 06:34

Well, the thing is, like, everything happened all at once. I feel like the last five years has been a blur. We’re going into our fifth year this year. I think it’s been a blur, but I would say like the top line successes that I know we’ve impacted like, even if it’s not us directly having an impact, we have impacted it happening.

06:35 – 06:55

So I would say that as part of our mission, it’s to embed Black history three-six-five days a year to empower students. And obviously, one of our goals is to make it mandatory in the English national curriculum. But seeing Wales do it and knowing of all the campaigning we were doing beforehand. And of course, you know, they had their own working groups, they had their own campaigners, like really kind of sitting down to think about how they implement it.

06:55 – 07:12

I would say that The Black Curriculum, in terms of generating public awareness contributed to that. And I think that’s something that we can share as a win. I would also say we won gold at the British Podcast Awards in the history category for our Sounds of Black Britain podcast. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

07:12 – 07:30

And a lot of work went into that with team members who, like, devised the idea and made it happen, as well as the partners that we partnered with. Yeah, thanks to Spotify and We Are Unedited for that. And I think the reason I like that is because we’re showing that education doesn’t have to be boring, like history doesn’t have to be in textbooks like you can teach through podcasts you can teach the creative means and, you know, win in the history category.

07:30 – 07:47

I would also say a lot of the young people that we have seen, worked with, are working with now. We’ve got a Young Champions cohort. We have seen them literally take charge of like teaching and learning the histories. And that is literally the that’s the goal. So I’d say that’s a huge win.

07:47 – 08:08

And I’d probably say lastly, well yeah, today we worked with over I think 5,000 teachers and students as well across the country. And I think for us, it’s like we’ve managed to break through into the education system. And that is like, that’s not, in England that’s not an easy feat. Okay, so I’m very proud of that. And yeah, I know it’s gonna continue.

08:09 – 08:41

Yeah. Proud as you should be because I know, and I think a lot of people know that will be listening, it’s not easy at all. And like you said, making it interesting and accessible and fun, you know, using different platforms and getting people on board, like Julie Adenuga that people can relate to and understand and just incredible. And I think such a great model to use for other people that potentially want to do a similar thing or maybe a different field, but it’s just such a great example of what can be achieved.

08:42 – 09:05

Yeah. So in a way that takes us into the next question, which you being a leader, leading all of this work, what would you say has helped you get to that leadership stage and what skills, do you think, are the most important that you’ve had or gained from doing all this?

Well, I would say, first of all, my faith in God has like enabled everything to happen.

09:05 – 09:22

I’ve always been a person that was pretty fearless, like, and I think that led to a lot of the earlier incidents that I had in schools and like that, you know, exclusions and stuff. But I think having faith in God has enabled that side of me to be able to channel it in a different way so I can thank God for my success.

09:22 – 09:41

But I would say in terms of the learnings I’ve had over the last couple of years, particularly with leading this, is that you have to be able to be a people person, like you have to be able to talk, and I think that’s a gift that I’ve got, to be able to narrate a very crazy vision and make it sound like it’s possible.

09:41 – 09:58

And I think, like you have to do that. It’s almost like even if it’s not ready yet, even if the idea isn’t fully fledged, you have to talk as if it’s happening. And when you’re talking to grant people, or funders, or even your target audiences. Like, I think that ability to convey what you see for any leader is the vision.

09:58 – 10:16

I think any vision without it being explained how it can be made possible, it’s probably bound to not be done really well. I would say, now that I’m five years in, letting go, because I think when I first started, obviously I had all these ideas I wanted to see happen, and I think it got to probably about 2022,

10:16 – 10:34

I was like hmm, I probably have to allow the rest of the team to kind of just drive it. And I think now that I’m four and a half years in or five now, I think it is about just stepping back and giving yourself an opportunity to just let other people shine and create the future success of the company.

10:34 – 10:54

So I’d say that’s like the top three or four things for me.

Yeah. So the belief that, you know, this is needed and possible. So really just that vision essential, the ability to network and navigate. Definitely. I think you kind of have to talk to the right people and have the yeah the skills to do that’s so important. I really see that.

10:54 – 11:12

And then being able to let go of your baby, but maybe not let go, but you know, maybe give the reins over to new leaders, potential emerging people that are coming up. Yeah.

Yeah. I had a mentor once that said it’s you’re not letting go, you’re just making room. And I like that, you know, it’s like giving baby to nursery.

11:12 – 11:38

Just allow the nursery managers to just look after your child and that’s it.

Yeah. And I suppose that’s just a perfect way to talk about how you then feel we can encourage new emerging leaders or young people to get involved in campaigns for change, like you all must have in creating that space. How would you encourage them to do that?

11:38 – 12:00

I would say, don’t listen to the noise. Like, firstly I think, sometimes what dissuades people from starting is that, like, they see all these like systemic problems. They see like government taking loads of actions to basically like create fear in people. And I think sometimes, like, we got overwhelmed as changemakers looking at the problems and listening to them.

12:00 – 12:21

I think it’s really important to be in networks where tuning and critique is possible. And it’s taken as like prayer. It’s a ritual, and you have to be able to continue to be in the spaces to actually have that ability to hold on to something that will bring that change. And so I feel like you have to know that the noise is just a distraction.

12:21 – 12:41

And I think that would then help you to then assemble with the right people. Because, as I said in the beginning, the only way this was able to start was through people that actually believed that change was possible as well, and had time and resources to do so. And I think the only way that you can find those people is if you’re in conversation with them, or if you finding them in the right spaces.

12:42 – 13:00

So I would say like change and movement building happens when you’re around the right people, having the right conversations, and staying outside of that arena of distraction. Whether that is the media, I don’t know, whatever you feel it looks like, systemically you have to switch off. And then I would also say, well, this is a really interesting one.

13:00 – 13:37

I feel like I, I’m still learning about change is only possible in the system when you have resources behind it. And sometimes that resource is money. And I think you have to be able to really think about other other ways sometimes of engaging people and mobilising resources that don’t always sit in the traditional ways of getting money to start something so traditional, ways that like applying for grants or maybe going to family member to ask for a startup capital to start the idea. But I would say that from now, like if you are already thinking about like thinking about something, have a think about how you’re going to fund that as well, because that is always going to be a question.

13:37 – 13:53

And that’s something that I don’t think is ever going to go away.

Yeah, it’s really useful advice because I think often people don’t know where to start with it and they need that help to understand, you know, we’ve got an idea, but it can’t just happen by itself. We need some funding, we need money, and where can I get it from?

13:53 – 14:16

So to start thinking about that right from the start is really good advice.

You don’t want to think about it when you’re like in the middle of it, because then it just disrupts a lot. So yeah, think about it now.

Okay. Think about it now. So I suppose then the last thing to say or to ask is about any future plans that you have, anything you’re excited about or want to mention coming up.

14:17 – 14:42

Well, well, well, I love future stuff, but I’ve just finished my first book. I’m actually writing another one.

Amazing, amazing

I’m really excited. I’m excited to share when it comes out. But I’d say, like for The Black Curriculum, we’re really about deepening the impact that we’ve had. So we literally just finished a recent external evaluation that looks at the impacts of our programmes, so we know what we do well, we know what we don’t do very well.

14:42 – 15:06

Well, I shouldn’t say don’t do very well. We know how to learn. And I think that we all doing our best to support young people directly, as well as providing training in the areas of like Black history and language and just decolonial pedagogy to all providers. So that’s just not in education per se. That’s in prisons, that’s in the workforce at corporates as well.

15:06 – 15:25

Just making sure that we’re getting all the adults are around young people to kind of get them to think critically about how they engage with this all-year round. And I think that’s what I’m most excited about. It’s about deepening that impact we’re having and that we’ve had. So, don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot of work to do, but I am more than 100% faithful that we’ll get it done.

15:25 – 15:41

And I think the English national curriculum as well, it’s going to be challenged very soon. Let me just say that there’s a campaign coming, so make sure you support it when it comes out.

Such a great conversation and I think that will be super useful for all the people listening, not just young people, but like you say, for a systems-level approach.

15:41 – 15:46

I think it’s really great to hear what’s coming up.

Thank you so much

Of course.

15:46 – 16:05

Thanks for listening. You can find out more about the work we do at Cumberland Lodge with young people and beyond by visiting CumberlandLodge.ac.uk. You can also find us on social media @CumberlandLodge.