Resource type: Podcast
How can we create more compassionate leadership through more civil public discourse? We speak to Hannah Phillips to explore the importance of civility in politics, the role that gender plays, and the need for greater compassion in leadership.
Hannah Phillips is a Consultant with The Jo Cox Foundation, PhD student at the University of Oxford, and alumni of the Cumberland Lodge Fellowship scheme. She led the work on The Jo Cox Foundation’s recent Civility Commission report, which highlights that a more inclusive, fairer, and kinder public space is possible, and gives recommendations on how it can be achieved. You can read The Jo Cox Foundation Civility Commission here.
You can find out more on here about our educational work to help young people develop ethical leadership skills.
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The views expressed in these podcasts are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect those of Cumberland Lodge.
Episode transcript
00:00 – 00:33
Munny Purba (MP)
How do we build more civil political discourse and compassionate leadership in today’s complex world? In this episode, we speak to Hannah Phillips, a consultant with the Jo Cox Foundation. Hannah has led the work of the Civility Commission and is currently pursuing a PhD at the University of Oxford. We delve into the importance of civility in politics, the critical role gender plays in this arena, and the need for more compassionate forms of leadership that values collaboration and global learnings.
00:33 – 00:37
MP
Thank you so much Hannah for joining us for the podcast. We’re really happy to have you with us.
00:37 – 00:38
Hannah Phillips (HP)
Yeah, very happy to be here.
00:38 – 00:46
MP
So I think we’ll just kick off with asking you about what motivated you to get involved in working around this issue, civility in politics and gender.
00:46 – 01:19
HP
Yeah, absolutely. So I think my interest in this issue started in my undergraduate. So I had the fantastic opportunity to do my undergraduate at Harvard University. And I actually was going thinking I would graduate with an English degree as I wanted to work in arts education. But then I took a couple of politics classes, and I remember there was one session, I don’t actually know if this was in my one of my politics classes, but there was one session where someone put on the screen like how the percentage of women senators and this was pre-2012 and I can’t remember the exact percentage, but I like I thought it was wrong.
01:20 – 01:40
HP
Like I was like, oh that can’t be, it can’t be that low, surely. And it was that that kind of piqued my interest and understanding about the kind of barriers to equal representation of women and others who are marginalised in politics. And yes, I think that was the moment that kind of sparked my interest. And then I took some government classes.
01:40 – 02:01
HP
I worked on political campaigns and was just really, it sounds really cheesy, but was really interested and really like to be in the environment where people wanted to, you know, make a real change. So that was my first experience in working in that type of environment. And in terms of what I do now, which is working on addressing abuse in politics and promoting civility.
02:01 – 02:21
HP
It was when I was working at the United Nations, and I was part of the team that was responsible for improving gender parity and promoting a better workplace culture across the whole UN system. And I started to think this would be really interesting to see, like what parliaments and other political organisations do, having kind of worked in politics.
02:21 – 02:41
HP
And I thought, oh, I bet there’s been like tons of research about like violence and politics, particularly sexual harassment towards women in politics. But there actually wasn’t at that point, there wasn’t a huge amount of research on that specific topic. And I’d always thought about doing a PhD, I really enjoyed my undergraduate thesis and my master’s and that kind of dropped into place.
02:41 – 03:11
HP
That this is something I would want to study. And I was working in Parliament when Jo Cox was murdered, and it was such a kind of obviously important and kind of ground shaking event for everyone who was working in politics at the time. So, yeah, it’s a combination of my kind of interests and experiences and just that really kind of, I guess, belief that democracy matter is a politics matter is and it’s really important to have a democracy that is representative and safe for people to participate in.
03:11 – 03:15
HP
So yeah, I hope that that answers the question.
03:15 – 03:21
MP
Yeah, definitely. And like you said that in previous years it’s not really been discussed or researched as much as it probably should be.
03:21 – 03:22
HP
Yeah.
03:22 – 03:36
MP
So that kind of brings me to the next point, which is about asking about the potential barriers that you face when trying to do this work, because of course, at the moment it’s very relevant. But I’m sure at some point there was, people felt there was maybe not a need for it. But did you find that in the work that you were doing?
03:37 – 03:56
HP
Sometimes. I think one of the barriers is that is true of kind of public interest work like politics, you know, as you’ll know, from working in charities, third sector, academia, is that precarity of kind of the job conditions. And particularly when you’re earlier in your career, the salaries aren’t great. You have to really kind of work to be respected.
03:56 – 04:14
HP
I think those structural barriers are really, really important. And also, I think something I find interesting is the kind of different types of knowledges and communications between academia and like charity. So, you know, I’m working in the University of Oxford on my PhD and another academic project, and I’m working with the Jo Cox Foundation, who are fantastic.
04:14 – 04:35
HP
And it’s just really interesting, the kind of different measures of success, different way we can think about the problem. And I think there’s a real opportunity to collaborate and so on but sometimes there’s those kind of different incentives or different kind of institutional norms that kind of can get in the way of that collaboration. So I actually find that that’s been, that can be a barrier, but hopefully it’s something that can be overcome.
04:36 – 04:45
MP
Yeah, and I suppose doing the work and actually seeing the changes and it being talked about a bit more hopefully helps you overcome those barriers a little bit.
04:45 – 05:02
HP
Yes, absolutely. And I think like this is at the moment is an issue that people are talking, you know, people are talking about. It’s really unfortunately obvious why it is a problem. So I think there is that kind of opportunity to be like, well, this is the research that backs it up. And also this is kind of policy recommendations of what we can do.
05:02 – 05:20
HP
And I really appreciate being able to, you know, think deeply about how we can understand and define the problem over time, like in my academic work. And then with the Jo Cox Foundation and working with other organisations, you know, to think about this is how we can actually, you know, solve the problem when we have like 20 recommendations, a few of them have already been implemented.
05:20 – 05:24
HP
So having that, I guess, like dual role has been really exciting.
05:24 – 05:44
MP
Yeah. And it gives you kind of a breadth of understanding and an overview which is which is really cool I think.
HP
Yeah.
MP
Then I think you mentioned there a little bit about some of the things that have been implemented already.
HP
Yeah.
MP
I wonder if you can talk about some of the kind of successes that you found in doing this work and anything that you think you can see being a positive going forward and changes that you can see happening.
05:44 – 06:16
HP
Yeah, absolutely. So with the Jo Cox Foundation’s Civility Commission work, as I say, we have 20 recommendations across different themes and something that has been really valuable and really, I guess inspiring, is that there are lots of different organisations and people who want to make change, who want to make politics safer, more diverse, and having like a space for collaboration discussion has been really important, and I think that will lead to all sorts of change kind of down the line. More, I guess discreetly, more practically is a few of our recommendations have been implemented.
06:16 – 06:40
HP
So, for example, the government announced earlier this year, I guess the former government now, but it will be taken forward I, I assume that there’ll be more security more police resources for local councillors because something that we and others, like the Local Government Association and the National Association of Local Councils were really pushing is this isn’t just a kind of national problem for members of Parliament, although obviously that’s incredibly important.
06:40 – 07:05
HP
But there needs to be support kind of throughout levels of government. So that kind of practical change that there will be more support, but even that kind of awareness. So this is something that is affecting people in all levels of government. And our work with the Electoral Commission, that during General Election campaign, they launched some research that showed that I think it was over half the people who responded to their survey for the local government elections had experienced some sort of abuse.
07:05 – 07:23
HP
So, again, that sort of awareness raising and collaboration with different kind of organisations doing this work has been really, really kind of important in the short term, and I think can lead to kind of more long term change. And I guess I should say, as an academic, seeing all the research from kind of different countries in the world is kind of showing that this is a kind of shared problem.
07:23 – 07:44
HP
And I think there can be more kind of helpful collaboration across the world. And then the project I’m working on at the Blavatnik School of Government at the University at Oxford is looking at kind of what’s been working to particularly address the problem of abuse towards women in politics. Like, what’s been working? What can we do? Learning lessons in different parts of the world to really address this problem.
07:44 – 07:51
HP
So yeah, I actually talking to you, I feel quite hopeful, even though it is, you know, a horrible and pressing issue. I think there is a hope for change.
07:51 – 08:07
MP
I mean, it certainly sounds like it from from all the work that’s coming out, the research that’s happening. And as you mentioned there, a lot about the collaboration globally. It seems like this is an issue that is pushing forward and there’s more awareness of and I think that’s definitely a success in itself really which is which is great.
08:07 – 08:29
MP
So you being a leader kind of around this work and really pushing things forward as part of the Jo Cox Foundation and as an academic, I wonder if you could think about some of the qualities that you’ve either noted in yourself that you have as a leader that allows you to do this work or something that you felt that you’ve picked up along the way, that you can kind of mention about what’s really helped you?
08:29 – 08:46
HP
Yeah. I really, when you sent this question in advance, I really appreciated it because I think there’s all sorts of different opinions of what makes a good leader and so on. And I think it’s definitely a journey I’ve been on kind of throughout my life or career. I think I used to think leadership was, you know, you had to be really confident and assertive and almost like top down approach.
08:46 – 09:12
HP
And I think as I have moved through the world and particularly in my work at the Jo Cox Foundation, I’ve really valued that compassionate nature of leadership, the collaborative nature of leadership. And I think something that’s really impressive about the Jo Cox Foundation is that it really practices its values of collaboration, compassion, in the way that people interact with each other and, you know, structures like making sure we celebrate each other’s achievements and so on.
09:12 – 09:34
HP
And so I really think that sort of, yeah, compassion has been really something that I’ve really learned and really want to take forward that sort, compassionate, collaborative style, of leadership. And something I would say, as well as young leaders or kind of young people in various organisations, even though I don’t think it should be our responsibility, I think we do,
09:34 – 09:57
HP
we can kind of raise issues about the structural barriers I mentioned or when, you know, organisations maybe aren’t practicing their values. I think it is important. You know, there’s also obviously there’s power dynamics and so on. But I think it is important to kind of raise awareness of those kind of structural barriers. You know, I’ve had a lot of PhD students across in my university, across the country really struggle with funding and housing and so on.
09:57 – 10:13
HP
And I think sometimes that is not always recognised by kind of people who are more senior in organisations and having ways to point that out, like not just you but kind of as a together can be really helpful. And again, hopefully, even if it doesn’t lead to immediate change, can hopefully kind of change it for the better in the future.
10:13 – 10:38
MP
Yeah definitely, I think it’s really interesting that you mentioned there that you at the Jo Cox Foundation have found that it doesn’t need to be this style of leadership, which is really aggressive. It’s really about kind of a shared learning and collaboration, which is, as you mentioned there, is really important as a leader and especially working with young people in understanding their struggles, really trying to kind of be that relator in a sense that they feel they can come to you and use you as their mentor almost.
10:38 – 10:39
HP
Yeah.
10:39 – 10:49
HP
And also valuing like everyone’s inputs and so on, you know, like make sure, you know, everyone is a leader in their own right. Everyone’s an expert in their own experiences. And I think that’s something that is really important.
10:49 – 11:05
MP
Yeah, I think it’s really good advice. And so I think what might also be useful is if you had a few more bits of advice for young people, if they’re thinking of going into some leadership roles or working on issues that they care about and becoming leaders in their own right, what would you tell them and what advice could you give them?
11:05 – 11:28
HP
First of all, great. Yes, we need more young people to make change. I think something that’s really important is to think about your one, your values. So, you know, you want to change something but you know, why, you know, what is your why? That’s a lot of kind of advice I’ve got throughout. And I think that really helps when, like your long days, you’re working in a job that’s precarious, you know, and having that like, okay, this is why I’m doing it.
11:28 – 11:47
HP
But then I also think it is important to think about what you want your everyday to look like? Because I think, you know, oh, there’s been a lot written and talked about like activist burnout and so on. And I think it’s important to. Yeah, I guess like think about what you want your everyday to look like and make sure you kind of look after yourself as well as, you know, going after and being a leader in things that you care about.
11:47 – 12:13
HP
And I guess finally, I think it’s really important to find your team and that can be different teams and so find there’s a there’s a Parks and Rec quote from Leslie Knope if people watch Parks & Rec, but she has a quote: “Go find your team and get to work” and I, yeah, I just always come back to that because that’s something I’ve really valued throughout my career is having, you know, really good managers and really good colleagues and just finding people who are like minded.
12:13 – 12:28
HP
Also people who will challenge you, you know, not just have that groupthink and so on, but who are still maybe share similar values, but are thinking about getting there a different way or so on. So values. So what are your values? What’s your why? Look after yourself, and find your team.
12:28 – 12:44
MP
Great summary of those pieces of advice at the end there too. But you know it’s true. I think we tend to think that we have to go out alone and do these things. But actually like your support system is really important for you to keep going and like you said, not get burnt out. So no, I think that’s really good.
12:44 – 12:56
MP
And then I think finally, what would be interesting to hear from you is about any future plans you have, maybe about the work that you’re doing, but also more personally, anything you wanted to share, any exciting things coming up for you.
12:56 – 13:23
HP
Well, my kind of priority is to finish my PhD, because once I have the PhD, I guess have that, you know, qualification of doctor, I’ll be able to do kind of, even more interesting work, and I’m hoping to continue the work I’m doing at the Jo Cox Foundation and/or also at the University of Oxford on promoting civility, finding solutions about how we can address abuse in politics in the UK and around the world to strengthen democracy for, for everyone.
13:23 – 13:31
HP
But yeah, so practically finish the PhD, and more broadly is to continue doing doing this work and collaborating with people who are making change.
13:31 – 13:53
MP
That’s brilliant. And we will be keeping an eye out for all the work that you’re doing because, as we’ve mentioned, so relevant and so important. And I think it’s really important to link it also to the strength of our democracy, because without having compassion in politics, we won’t have the ability to be, I don’t want to say reliant on it, but we need to have trust in it being something that we can believe in.
13:54 – 14:07
HP
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s funny you mentioned Compassion in Politics because there’s another organisation that we’ve worked with at the Jo Cox Foundation. And yeah, it’s such a great name, and it’s the yeah, it’s that the values are so, so incredibly important.
14:07 – 14:21
MP
Yeah. No, definitely. And so thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a really interesting conversation. And and I’m looking forward to seeing all the work that you’re doing. And congratulations on on getting close, hopefully, to the end of your PhD.
14:21 – 14:28
HP
Don’t congratulate me quite yet but yeah thank you. Yes. Always. And it’s always great to be back at the Lodge even if it’s virtual.
14:28 – 14:41
MP
Thanks for listening. You can find out more about the work we do at Cumberland Lodge with young people and beyond by visiting cumberlandlodge.ac.uk. You can also find us on social media @CumberlandLodge.
Hannah previously joined us for a Dialogue & Debate webinar with Jess Phillips MP, prior to the 2024 General Election, where they discussed Civility in Politics.