South Asian Heritage Month Part one Cumberland Lodge

Resource type: Podcast

In celebration of South Asian Heritage Month, our Programme Officer Munny sat down with members of her family for an intergenerational conversation around this year’s theme – free to be me.

This is the second half of the conversation. The first half is available to watch or listen to here. An audio-only version of this conversation is available through major podcast platforms. You can subscribe to Cumberland Lodge’s podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, and other major podcast platforms.

You can find out more on here about our educational work to help young people develop ethical leadership skills.

The views expressed in these podcasts are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect those of Cumberland Lodge.

Cumberland Lodge · An intergenerational conversational for South Asian Heritage Month – Part two

Transcript

00:00

Harjinder Singh Nagi (HSN)

And so can I ask, what is the most positive thing that you have taken which you feel is South Asian from your parents?

00:09

Munny Purba (MP)

Yeah, great question.

00:10

Rav Purba (RP)

I think, for me, I think the number one thing is the family unit. Yeah, it’s so important, you know, for me just growing up in the family that I have, we’ve always been really close knit. I grew up with my cousins as siblings.

00:26

There was no difference and so family to me is really important and that’s a really good, you know, value to instil in your child. So I really appreciate that. I really do love that about my culture.

00:38

But I would like to add something as a South Asian woman myself, that’s 43, unmarried, no children, that is, that has been a challenge for me.

00:53

Because there’s an expectation societally to be married by, let’s say, nowadays early 30s and have children. And I haven’t done that. And I know that society, Indian society is looking at me like, ohh, why hasn’t she done that or what’s wrong or what in a negative way. Questioning it in a negative way.

01:12

And I have just been that person that has never wanted to settle down with just anybody. It’s not a case of not wanting to. I just feel that so many people in the Asian culture settle down because it’s time to settle down and because society dictates that you should settle down and have children.

01:28

And I’ve just chosen not to do that unless I meet someone that really makes me want to do that. And I do feel the pressure from society or the disappointment from society that I haven’t done that, that I’ve failed in some way.

01:39

Rani Kaur Nagi (RKN)

They’re not, but they’re not important because you said your family’s important. Your family accept what you have decided and embrace it. So for us, it doesn’t matter.

01:50

That’s true. I know that’s true. But you do still feel the societal pressure because you, that’s been programmed into you since a child. You know, what are people gonna think of, that whole, what are people gonna think is a massive thing in Indian culture.

02:05

HSN

I don’t think it’s peculiar to South Asian culture I think that is something that is, yeah, it’s general society. Society in general will be very myopic in that respect and be judgmental. That’s not just South Asian culture.

02:19

But I think. No, but I think that, yeah, you’re right in saying that, that, especially in a gendered way for women not being married and not having kids is a massive thing. But I think it’s proliferated by the fact that South Asian culture really considers an unmarried woman to be almost a burden to society or burden to family, yeah.

02:34

HSN

But that’s what I’m saying that because we are South Asian, so therefore you’re exposed to that culture. If you say this, the same thing, to a Afro Caribbean lady of 43 without the, who is it, right? You say that to an English lady?

Yeah.

HSN

You’re gonna get the same thing. It’s, uh.

02:50

Potentially, but I’m not. I’m not sure if that’s necessary. I mean, I’ve done. I’ve done a lot of work around Indian values and cultures in India specifically. That’s obviously trickled down to the diaspora as it’s travelled, but, in specific, Indian and South Asian culture, there definitely is this idea that a woman is a burden generally.

03:13

Ish M’Zian (IM)

Ohh definitely.

03:13

Generally, generally because and that’s because often things like dowry. This is obviously older views, but dowry.

03:20

HSN

I’m not gonna disagree with you because I recognise what you’re saying.

Yeah.

03:25

HSN

But I think South Asian, South Asian culture, where it’s surrounded by South Asian culture, isn’t gonna evolve. That’s what I was saying about this thing about.

RKN

Isn’t going to evolve?

HSN

No, because if you’re surrounded by people of that, that mindset. You are not going to be exposed to other cultures that say, you know what, you’re a person. You know what if I had.

03:49

HSN

I remember when Laxmi got married, the thing that I said that in in Punjabi that (IN PUNJABI) “those who have daughters are very fortunate”.

03:58

And what does that mean?

04:00

HSN

That means that if you have a daughter,

Yeah.

HSN

You have you, you are blessed. For me, I still say it because you are. Because it’s only when you lose your daughter to somebody’s, uh, when they get married. It’s only then that you realise that.

04:17

But what.

04:18

But see, even that thing that you’ve just said there.

04:19

See exactly that, that.

You’ve just said it there.

04:22

That language, it’s very patriarchal, very male language.

HSN

But that’s just me, just me.

No. But it’s, you’re just perpetuating what is actually happening.

RKN

Our society is, it is very patriarchal.

Sorry. So you’re just you’re just talking in the way that everybody talks. Like, that’s normal. That’s when a boy is born, you give out laddu. You know, when a girl is born, you don’t. But that’s the thing. It’s changing now, but from even from when we were young, that was the norm. That is what was happening.

04:49

RKN

Yes.

04:50

A girl when she gets married, she leaves the family. When a boy gets married it’s a celebration, everyone’s happy. There’s no crying.

You’ve got a new member of the family

Yeah. And it’s, why is that the case? Why is that the case?

05:02

HSN

You should see how much I was crying when I was married.

05:06

HKR

And your bi ji as well. Exactly. My husband actually cried because the thing is, he came from Asia, so he got married here. And it wasn’t me who was crying, it was actually him who was crying, so it was actually the opposite way.

05:19

I feel like even our generation, no matter if our parents had meant to or not, or not, no matter if society meant to or not, women and men and female like. Sorry, I’m saying it wrong, but females and males are always seen as different. There will always be a difference between us. And I try to explain it to my boyfriend and he doesn’t see it because he’s from an all boy family. He’s got one brother. So it’s two boys in the family.

05:48

And sometimes when I can’t do things because my dad won’t let me, he’s always like, but just do it because you can. Because I can do it. And I was like. But you don’t understand, you’re a boy in a Punjabi family or an Indian family and I’m a girl in an Indian family. We have constraints. I can’t just gallivant and go out and not tell my parents. Are you crazy? Like my dad would hunt me down.

06:12

You can’t. Like I can’t do those things. So like although we have improved in in some ways there are still so many constraints that are put on Indian women.

06:25

HKR

But wouldn’t you think that that’s the same as in if it was in an English family?

No, I don’t think so.

And, but that’s not to say that we’ve left things behind necessarily. We’re taking things forward from our culture as well. All the good things that we love about our culture, we’re taking that forward. And I think for me, one of the things that I love about the culture is the celebration of, you know, all the festivals that we have and all the brilliant, wonderful things that we have that actually other people celebrate too, like the colourful weddings like, you know. Yeah, the food which is. Yeah. You know, the British number one dish is chicken tikka masala, which is not actually actually Indian. But yeah. Anyway, Indian-esque.

08:04

I think we sometimes, you know, we sometimes look back and think ohh, I wish we could have done that or it’s annoying that we had to do that because we’re Asian and that sort of thing. But actually I think I’m so proud and I think it’s taken me actually quite a long time to get to the point of with saying that I’m so proud to be Indian. Cause I think when we were growing up, it wasn’t that it wasn’t that positive to be Indian, even for me, because at uni, for instance, it was.

08:31

Even at uni it was sort of like, I didn’t know, it’s funny to say it, but it was cool to be at the Afro Caribbean parties enjoying the Afro Caribbean music. If any Punjabi music played, they play one song and it would be like looking at me, dance around, and then that would be it. And then it’s like, oh, it’s not actually cool to enjoy Indian music. It’s not cool to enjoy Indian films or be Indian.

08:49

But now there’s a whole scene, music scene, that’s like embracing Indian culture and music. And every, you know, I feel differently about it now and perhaps it’s cause I’m older, but when I was younger, I didn’t feel that way. But I’m very proud to be Indian now and I think being around lots of people that aren’t Asian and I specifically being around white people.

09:08

It’s made me feel different in a good way, like I’ve got so much culture to bring to the table. I’m so amazed, like I’m so happy that I’ve got such a family culture around me, which perhaps other people don’t have. So I think I’m very proud of those things. Personally, I would always say I’m Indian first and foremost, and I’m British in my nationality. That’s true.

09:28

But you know, if I walked down the street, to be honest, someone looking me think like I’m a brown person and they wouldn’t say you’re English or British, probably I would assume, I could be wrong here but. And yeah, and I, I would think that my Indian-ness and I believe my Indian-ness is a massive part of me. And that’s who I am. So.

09:46

HSN

Who are who are the two people here that look most Indian?

09:51

The two people that looks most Indian?

09:52

HSN

Balla and me. You guys can be Spanish, Greek, Brazilian, Argentinian.

09:57

Ohh, thank you.

09:58

HSN

Right.

Why couldn’t you be?

HSN

Because I look, like.

RKN

His identity.

HSN

My persona.

Because of the Patka?

HSN

Yes, essentially. And people. Yeah. Yeah. Now. And I have less Indian in me now than 20 years ago. I have more in common with my British friends than I have and my and also my other British Indian friends of Indian heritage. We have far more in common with people of this country than you do with the people of India.

10:36

Potentially, but you can’t change the colour of my skin and you can’t change my facial features and you can’t change those things. And that is also how we are identified. So I think as much as that’s the case, potentially my culture, I’m very British. I dress in a certain way that’s not connected to being Indian all the time and you know, I act a certain way. But at the end of the day, when someone looks at me.

10:54

Or you know, I’m not English in the way that a lot of people would suggest English looks so.

11:01

RKN

So I had that conversation with Adam who’s my son-in-law

Who is?

RKN

Who is English. And his question to me is why do you not class yourself as English? Why do you say British?

11:13

RKN

I said so. I said to him well, I wasn’t born in this country, so my nationality is British. So I’m Indian. And he said, but why is my wife? Why does she class herself as English? I said because she was born in England. So therefore, she can put English. I said well, if you didn’t know me and you saw me, would you look at me and say that’s an English person or is that? You’d say it’s an Indian person.

Exactly.

RKN

And he said. I’ve never really thought of it that way, but that’s the education for him. He doesn’t see us in the same way that he saw us maybe five or six years ago?

Interesting.

11:43

For some reason I don’t really feel comfortable calling myself English. British yes, but not English. I don’t know.

11:49

RKN

My children do.

Hmm, I don’t.

RKN

Sikander, does he calls himself English.

00:11:53

Yeah, I do.

I don’t.

I do.

Do you?

Yeah.

No, I think it’s really varied, actually. I hear a lot of people saying that they never call themselves English and then here, like hearing people call themselves English.

HSN

Why?

12:10

I don’t actually have a reason, if I’m completely honest. It’s just I think it is solely of because of how Dad identified himself where he would identify himself as,

12:23

HSN

Malaysian.

12:24

Malaysian, Malaysian and Indian. But he wasn’t born in Malaysia, he was born in England. But he also identifies himself as Indian, but also on, I know it sounds so silly, but on forms that we fill out, it’s always British Indian. Yeah, it’s always British something. So then I’ve just naturally, I am a British Indian or a British Malaysian or whatever I feel like at the time calling myself. But it is always, it’s always been British to me. I’ve never.

12:55

The word English has never really been, other than the language, has never really been forced upon me, as opposed to British which is in front of my face all the time. That’s why I identify like that. I don’t know.

13:05

Yeah, I would say as well.

13:08

So thinking about, did you have something to say?

13:10

Yeah, I was just gonna say I associate being English with white. That in my mind, that’s what I think, you know, English person is a white person. And British can be somebody who has a different origin. So lives in and growing up in Britain. Britain. Yeah.

13:23

Yeah, I think I agree with you in that sense. Yeah. And I would be very happy to say I’m from London and I’m British and I’m Indian. But I would never say English.

13:32

Yeah, I feel the same, yeah.

13:35

But thinking about the connection of all these cultures and the integration of these cultures, as you said, as we’ve grown.

13:42

As the years have gone on, you feel a bit more British potentially than Indian, but how do you feel about the bringing together of cultures? Is it something that you’re…?

13:50

HSN

That’s exactly what it is.

13:52

HKR

Yeah.

And yes, our family is really loving and really welcoming to all cultures and we’re quite a diverse, diverse family. I have friends on the other hand, who don’t have that. And they, and are Indian and are South Asian and I hear them talk about how their parents are still like, how you would say your parents were like 40 years ago. Because it was, or it is, you have to marry an Indian. You can’t do this. You can’t do that. You’re not allowed to drink. You’re not allowed to socialise with boys until you get married. And then they get to ages where, I’m 24 now, not only am I hearing it from people saying, oh well, you went away with your boyfriend for 15 months, why aren’t you getting married? She’s hearing it why haven’t you found a man yet? Why haven’t you? Why haven’t you done this? So I feel like, yes, our family, we are truly blessed. And I appreciate being brought up in the family that we’ve been brought up with.

19:37

But we are very, maybe not unique, but is one in a like few. The amount of stories that I hear on the flip side of they don’t get that freedom and they don’t have that choice. It’s more than I would like to think in this society.

19:52

21:13

It’s definitely fun being South Asian. It is fun.

It’s definitely fun being South Asian. So yeah, everyone else proud? Don’t have to say yes.

21:21

Absolutely.

RKN

It’s only taken me 60 years to be comfortable in my own skin now. And that’s because I’m so enriched with so much.

Yeah.

RKN

That is wonderful. So, yeah, I’m a 60-year-old, well, nearly 60, comfortable in my own skin and happy to be me.

21:40

I love that for you. Thank you. I want to do a round of applause, but it’s probably weird. Hey.