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In celebration of South Asian Heritage Month, our Programme Officer Munny sat down with members of her family for an intergenerational conversation around this year’s theme – free to be me.
This is the second half of the conversation. The first half is available to watch or listen to here. An audio-only version of this conversation is available through major podcast platforms. You can subscribe to Cumberland Lodge’s podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, and other major podcast platforms.
You can find out more on here about our educational work to help young people develop ethical leadership skills.
The views expressed in these podcasts are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect those of Cumberland Lodge.
Transcript
00:00
Harjinder Singh Nagi (HSN)
And so can I ask, what is the most positive thing that you have taken which you feel is South Asian from your parents?
00:09
Munny Purba (MP)
Yeah, great question.
00:10
Rav Purba (RP)
I think, for me, I think the number one thing is the family unit. Yeah, it’s so important, you know, for me just growing up in the family that I have, we’ve always been really close knit. I grew up with my cousins as siblings.
00:26
RP
There was no difference and so family to me is really important and that’s a really good, you know, value to instil in your child. So I really appreciate that. I really do love that about my culture.
00:38
RP
But I would like to add something as a South Asian woman myself, that’s 43, unmarried, no children, that is, that has been a challenge for me.
00:53
RP
Because there’s an expectation societally to be married by, let’s say, nowadays early 30s and have children. And I haven’t done that. And I know that society, Indian society is looking at me like, ohh, why hasn’t she done that or what’s wrong or what in a negative way. Questioning it in a negative way.
01:12
RP
And I have just been that person that has never wanted to settle down with just anybody. It’s not a case of not wanting to. I just feel that so many people in the Asian culture settle down because it’s time to settle down and because society dictates that you should settle down and have children.
01:28
RP
And I’ve just chosen not to do that unless I meet someone that really makes me want to do that. And I do feel the pressure from society or the disappointment from society that I haven’t done that, that I’ve failed in some way.
01:39
Rani Kaur Nagi (RKN)
They’re not, but they’re not important because you said your family’s important. Your family accept what you have decided and embrace it. So for us, it doesn’t matter.
01:50
RP
That’s true. I know that’s true. But you do still feel the societal pressure because you, that’s been programmed into you since a child. You know, what are people gonna think of, that whole, what are people gonna think is a massive thing in Indian culture.
02:05
HSN
I don’t think it’s peculiar to South Asian culture I think that is something that is, yeah, it’s general society. Society in general will be very myopic in that respect and be judgmental. That’s not just South Asian culture.
02:19
MP
But I think. No, but I think that, yeah, you’re right in saying that, that, especially in a gendered way for women not being married and not having kids is a massive thing. But I think it’s proliferated by the fact that South Asian culture really considers an unmarried woman to be almost a burden to society or burden to family, yeah.
02:34
HSN
But that’s what I’m saying that because we are South Asian, so therefore you’re exposed to that culture. If you say this, the same thing, to a Afro Caribbean lady of 43 without the, who is it, right? You say that to an English lady?
MP
Yeah.
HSN
You’re gonna get the same thing. It’s, uh.
02:50
MP
Potentially, but I’m not. I’m not sure if that’s necessary. I mean, I’ve done. I’ve done a lot of work around Indian values and cultures in India specifically. That’s obviously trickled down to the diaspora as it’s travelled, but, in specific, Indian and South Asian culture, there definitely is this idea that a woman is a burden generally.
03:13
Ish M’Zian (IM)
Ohh definitely.
03:13
MP
Generally, generally because and that’s because often things like dowry. This is obviously older views, but dowry.
03:20
HSN
I’m not gonna disagree with you because I recognise what you’re saying.
MP
Yeah.
03:25
HSN
But I think South Asian, South Asian culture, where it’s surrounded by South Asian culture, isn’t gonna evolve. That’s what I was saying about this thing about.
RKN
Isn’t going to evolve?
HSN
No, because if you’re surrounded by people of that, that mindset. You are not going to be exposed to other cultures that say, you know what, you’re a person. You know what if I had.
03:49
HSN
I remember when Laxmi got married, the thing that I said that in in Punjabi that (IN PUNJABI) “those who have daughters are very fortunate”.
03:58
MP
And what does that mean?
04:00
HSN
That means that if you have a daughter,
MP
Yeah.
HSN
You have you, you are blessed. For me, I still say it because you are. Because it’s only when you lose your daughter to somebody’s, uh, when they get married. It’s only then that you realise that.
04:17
IM
But what.
04:18
MP
But see, even that thing that you’ve just said there.
04:19
IM
See exactly that, that.
MP
You’ve just said it there.
04:22
IM
That language, it’s very patriarchal, very male language.
HSN
But that’s just me, just me.
IM
No. But it’s, you’re just perpetuating what is actually happening.
RKN
Our society is, it is very patriarchal.
IM
Sorry. So you’re just you’re just talking in the way that everybody talks. Like, that’s normal. That’s when a boy is born, you give out laddu. You know, when a girl is born, you don’t. But that’s the thing. It’s changing now, but from even from when we were young, that was the norm. That is what was happening.
04:49
RKN
Yes.
04:50
IM
A girl when she gets married, she leaves the family. When a boy gets married it’s a celebration, everyone’s happy. There’s no crying.
MP
You’ve got a new member of the family
IM
Yeah. And it’s, why is that the case? Why is that the case?
05:02
HSN
You should see how much I was crying when I was married.
05:06
HKR
And your bi ji as well. Exactly. My husband actually cried because the thing is, he came from Asia, so he got married here. And it wasn’t me who was crying, it was actually him who was crying, so it was actually the opposite way.
05:19
IP
I feel like even our generation, no matter if our parents had meant to or not, or not, no matter if society meant to or not, women and men and female like. Sorry, I’m saying it wrong, but females and males are always seen as different. There will always be a difference between us. And I try to explain it to my boyfriend and he doesn’t see it because he’s from an all boy family. He’s got one brother. So it’s two boys in the family.
05:48
IP
And sometimes when I can’t do things because my dad won’t let me, he’s always like, but just do it because you can. Because I can do it. And I was like. But you don’t understand, you’re a boy in a Punjabi family or an Indian family and I’m a girl in an Indian family. We have constraints. I can’t just gallivant and go out and not tell my parents. Are you crazy? Like my dad would hunt me down.
06:12
IP
You can’t. Like I can’t do those things. So like although we have improved in in some ways there are still so many constraints that are put on Indian women.
06:25
HKR
But wouldn’t you think that that’s the same as in if it was in an English family?
MP
No, I don’t think so.
HKR
I mean I think as a parent, I’m just, yeah, I mean I think I, that’s what I look at. As a parent you…
06:36
IM
Thing is though, you can, you can say that, but it doesn’t really matter. This is our experience. This is our life. So even if it does happen, it, it doesn’t matter doesn’t mean that it’s right and it’s good and it’s something that should be perpetuated. So that’s I think that’s the important thing and that’s the important thing about having this conversation, is to move forward.
06:41
HKR
Yes, yes, yeah.
06:56
IM
And not to just, because there’s a lot of in Asian culture, a lot of looking back what we used to do. Which is, a lot of that is really positive and really nice. And like I said, I think it’s great to have culture, but we should also look at improving ourselves.
07:06
HKR
Yeah.
07:13
IM
As individuals, not just as South Asians as people.
07:15
HKR
No, I think so, yeah, definitely 100%.
07:16
MP
Yeah, but so if you worked, I think going back to the positives because yeah, it’s. Obviously there’s been a lot of changes and as we’ve said here, things are moving forward, which is great I think.
07:28
MP
And, but that’s not to say that we’ve left things behind necessarily. We’re taking things forward from our culture as well. All the good things that we love about our culture, we’re taking that forward. And I think for me, one of the things that I love about the culture is the celebration of, you know, all the festivals that we have and all the brilliant, wonderful things that we have that actually other people celebrate too, like the colourful weddings like, you know. Yeah, the food which is. Yeah. You know, the British number one dish is chicken tikka masala, which is not actually actually Indian. But yeah. Anyway, Indian-esque.
08:04
MP
I think we sometimes, you know, we sometimes look back and think ohh, I wish we could have done that or it’s annoying that we had to do that because we’re Asian and that sort of thing. But actually I think I’m so proud and I think it’s taken me actually quite a long time to get to the point of with saying that I’m so proud to be Indian. Cause I think when we were growing up, it wasn’t that it wasn’t that positive to be Indian, even for me, because at uni, for instance, it was.
08:31
MP
Even at uni it was sort of like, I didn’t know, it’s funny to say it, but it was cool to be at the Afro Caribbean parties enjoying the Afro Caribbean music. If any Punjabi music played, they play one song and it would be like looking at me, dance around, and then that would be it. And then it’s like, oh, it’s not actually cool to enjoy Indian music. It’s not cool to enjoy Indian films or be Indian.
08:49
MP
But now there’s a whole scene, music scene, that’s like embracing Indian culture and music. And every, you know, I feel differently about it now and perhaps it’s cause I’m older, but when I was younger, I didn’t feel that way. But I’m very proud to be Indian now and I think being around lots of people that aren’t Asian and I specifically being around white people.
09:08
MP
It’s made me feel different in a good way, like I’ve got so much culture to bring to the table. I’m so amazed, like I’m so happy that I’ve got such a family culture around me, which perhaps other people don’t have. So I think I’m very proud of those things. Personally, I would always say I’m Indian first and foremost, and I’m British in my nationality. That’s true.
09:28
MP
But you know, if I walked down the street, to be honest, someone looking me think like I’m a brown person and they wouldn’t say you’re English or British, probably I would assume, I could be wrong here but. And yeah, and I, I would think that my Indian-ness and I believe my Indian-ness is a massive part of me. And that’s who I am. So.
09:46
HSN
Who are who are the two people here that look most Indian?
09:51
MP
The two people that looks most Indian?
09:52
HSN
Balla and me. You guys can be Spanish, Greek, Brazilian, Argentinian.
09:57
MP
Ohh, thank you.
09:58
HSN
Right.
RP
Why couldn’t you be?
HSN
Because I look, like.
RKN
His identity.
HSN
My persona.
RP
Because of the Patka?
HSN
Yes, essentially. And people. Yeah. Yeah. Now. And I have less Indian in me now than 20 years ago. I have more in common with my British friends than I have and my and also my other British Indian friends of Indian heritage. We have far more in common with people of this country than you do with the people of India.
10:36
MP
Potentially, but you can’t change the colour of my skin and you can’t change my facial features and you can’t change those things. And that is also how we are identified. So I think as much as that’s the case, potentially my culture, I’m very British. I dress in a certain way that’s not connected to being Indian all the time and you know, I act a certain way. But at the end of the day, when someone looks at me.
10:54
MP
Or you know, I’m not English in the way that a lot of people would suggest English looks so.
11:01
RKN
So I had that conversation with Adam who’s my son-in-law
MP
Who is?
RKN
Who is English. And his question to me is why do you not class yourself as English? Why do you say British?
11:13
RKN
I said so. I said to him well, I wasn’t born in this country, so my nationality is British. So I’m Indian. And he said, but why is my wife? Why does she class herself as English? I said because she was born in England. So therefore, she can put English. I said well, if you didn’t know me and you saw me, would you look at me and say that’s an English person or is that? You’d say it’s an Indian person.
MP
Exactly.
RKN
And he said. I’ve never really thought of it that way, but that’s the education for him. He doesn’t see us in the same way that he saw us maybe five or six years ago?
MP
Interesting.
11:43
RP
For some reason I don’t really feel comfortable calling myself English. British yes, but not English. I don’t know.
11:49
RKN
My children do.
RP
Hmm, I don’t.
RKN
Sikander, does he calls himself English.
00:11:53
IM
Yeah, I do.
MP
I don’t.
IM
I do.
MP
Do you?
IM
Yeah.
MP
No, I think it’s really varied, actually. I hear a lot of people saying that they never call themselves English and then here, like hearing people call themselves English.
HSN
Why?
MP
12:10
IP
I don’t actually have a reason, if I’m completely honest. It’s just I think it is solely of because of how Dad identified himself where he would identify himself as,
12:23
HSN
Malaysian.
12:24
IP
Malaysian, Malaysian and Indian. But he wasn’t born in Malaysia, he was born in England. But he also identifies himself as Indian, but also on, I know it sounds so silly, but on forms that we fill out, it’s always British Indian. Yeah, it’s always British something. So then I’ve just naturally, I am a British Indian or a British Malaysian or whatever I feel like at the time calling myself. But it is always, it’s always been British to me. I’ve never.
12:55
IP
The word English has never really been, other than the language, has never really been forced upon me, as opposed to British which is in front of my face all the time. That’s why I identify like that. I don’t know.
13:05
RP
Yeah, I would say as well.
13:08
MP
So thinking about, did you have something to say?
13:10
RP
Yeah, I was just gonna say I associate being English with white. That in my mind, that’s what I think, you know, English person is a white person. And British can be somebody who has a different origin. So lives in and growing up in Britain. Britain. Yeah.
13:23
MP
Yeah, I think I agree with you in that sense. Yeah. And I would be very happy to say I’m from London and I’m British and I’m Indian. But I would never say English.
13:32
RP
Yeah, I feel the same, yeah.
13:35
MP
But thinking about the connection of all these cultures and the integration of these cultures, as you said, as we’ve grown.
13:42
MP
As the years have gone on, you feel a bit more British potentially than Indian, but how do you feel about the bringing together of cultures? Is it something that you’re…?
13:50
HSN
That’s exactly what it is.
13:52
MP
Go ahead, yeah.
13:53
HSN
Being being my culture is, my cultural identity has evolved.
MP
Yeah.
HSN
So basically, I am more European in my outlook than I am Indian and simply because I don’t know what Indian really means. That sounds a bit silly because we all talk about what wonderful things that our parents gave us.
14:19
HSN
And culture you said something really important, really interesting. Family, right, for you know, but then, people from north of England, Scottish, Welsh people, Irish people, very family orientated, right, Europeans, very family orientated. So therefore, it’s not peculiar to Indian culture or Pakistani culture.
14:41
HSN
I think what it is is that how we speak, how we dress, how we eat, how we interact with other people, is not.
14:52
HSN
You know when I go to India now, I do not feel Indian, simply because culturally we are we are not the same. We are definitely different and I don’t say that in a negative way.
15:06
HSN
I say that in a positive way because we’ve been exposed to lots of wonderful things, and God willing, we will continue to evolve. You know, you’ve got a young guy there who’s basically has got lots of cultures that he’s enriched with.
15:26
HSN
And the next year and the next generation that from him will be even more enriched. So you know it’s something that we are. We are all…
15:39
HSN
We say we’re Indian, but there’s something, we’re also we’re Sikhs, right? And the Sikh says you learn, a Sikh is a student, you learn. You keep that in your mind and you’re never gonna stop evolving, evolving, evolving and evolution isn’t surrounding yourself by same people. Right? It just isn’t.
16:03
RKN
So we, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, we come from a very big family and you know, with the children, it’s it’s that. 30 years ago, even, 40 years ago, the majority of our children or us would have been married to Indians.
MP
Mm-hmm.
RKN
Right. And you’re talking about a mixture of cultures. Within our family alone, it’s such a mixture. We have a Moroccan, we have an English person, we have a Pakistani, you know? So the the,
RP
Australian
RKN
We have an Australian. It’s, yes, Sri Lankan. So it’s enormous if you think about how diverse our family is now.
16:43
HSN
And you’ve got someone from Birmingham as well.
16:43
RKN
And we grasp, you know, and we soak up all their cultures because we enjoy learning about them as they do with us and we, you know, I think it’s fantastic where we are now to where we were. You know I think about this a lot. If my parents were here, what would they think of our family, how accepting would it be?
MP
I’m not sure.
RKN
How, absolutely, and where we are now and how accepting we are? Yeah and it’s about yeah, it’s that. It’s that question. Yeah, that you were saying. Are you comfortable in your own skin? Is it? I think we are I think well for me, definitely.
17:19
HKR
Yeah, but I, but I think our parents had already started evolving by the time that we got married, even within our own families, and then, you know, within our siblings and stuff, and we’ve gone down. They’ve already started changing their person, no?
17:36
RKN
But they didn’t have a choice.
17:38
HKR
No, they didn’t.
17:39
RKN
Because they were, they were pushed to do it.
17:44
HKR
Yeah, but I mean, I don’t think. I don’t think we had a choice. But I think because having their point of view as well as having additional point of view and the way. And I think also how we were employed, how we were educated and going forward. It’s actually I mean I think I think we’re really enriched within our family, exactly like yourself.
18:07
HKR
And I think I think it’s great, you know and that’s a positive, that’s not a negative thing. And going forward and I think you know we’re thinking even of better things. You know there’s no way that we’re going to stop our children from doing what they want to do and hopefully they get accepted by all the other cultures as well as ours.
18:28
IP
I feel like we’re very blessed to be in our family.
HKR
Yeah.
IP
And yes, our family is really loving and really welcoming to all cultures and we’re quite a diverse, diverse family. I have friends on the other hand, who don’t have that. And they, and are Indian and are South Asian and I hear them talk about how their parents are still like, how you would say your parents were like 40 years ago. Because it was, or it is, you have to marry an Indian. You can’t do this. You can’t do that. You’re not allowed to drink. You’re not allowed to socialise with boys until you get married. And then they get to ages where, I’m 24 now, not only am I hearing it from people saying, oh well, you went away with your boyfriend for 15 months, why aren’t you getting married? She’s hearing it why haven’t you found a man yet? Why haven’t you? Why haven’t you done this? So I feel like, yes, our family, we are truly blessed. And I appreciate being brought up in the family that we’ve been brought up with.
19:37
IP
But we are very, maybe not unique, but is one in a like few. The amount of stories that I hear on the flip side of they don’t get that freedom and they don’t have that choice. It’s more than I would like to think in this society.
19:52
RP
Yeah.
19:54
MP
On a positive note.
19:57
RP
I agree with Isha, but I think the experience that Isha’s had is probably a little bit different from mine and Ishi’s as we talked about earlier. As when we were your age, it was a bit different and like my parents didn’t really want me to go to university outside of London, they wanted me to stay at home. Things like that.
RKN
Yeah.
RP
And I think we probably look back at that time and wish we had a bit of a different experience.
20:19
RP
But you know, it’s great that it’s changing and it’s good for you guys and for our future generations when they grow up and do those things.
20:27
RP
But yeah, it’s just to, I guess, reiterate what Ishi was saying around you don’t have to look from generation to generation to see a difference. You just need to look within one within a few years and the evolution of it is just immense. You can see that.
20:40
MP
Yeah.
RP
Quite happened quite quickly.
20:41
MP
I just want to end by kind of talking about the idea of being proud because personally I am, like I said earlier, proud very much so of being South Asian and being Indian as much as you might not think I am.
20:54
MP
And yeah, I’m so grateful to have been brought up in this culture, actually. And yeah, it’s family, it’s food, it’s celebration, it’s fun, it’s colour.
21:06
MP
And I think that, you know, look at us all together discussing this and having a great time. Yeah, it’s because we were able to.
21:13
RP
It’s definitely fun being South Asian. It is fun.
MP
It’s definitely fun being South Asian. So yeah, everyone else proud? Don’t have to say yes.
21:21
RP
Absolutely.
RKN
It’s only taken me 60 years to be comfortable in my own skin now. And that’s because I’m so enriched with so much.
MP
Yeah.
RKN
That is wonderful. So, yeah, I’m a 60-year-old, well, nearly 60, comfortable in my own skin and happy to be me.
21:40
MP
I love that for you. Thank you. I want to do a round of applause, but it’s probably weird. Hey.