An intergenerational conversation for South Asian Heritage Month - Part one

Resource type: Podcast

In celebration of South Asian Heritage Month, our Programme Officer Munny sat down with members of her family for an intergenerational conversation around this year’s theme – free to be me.

The conversation is split into two parts, with part two coming soon. An audio-only version of this conversation is available through major podcast platforms. You can subscribe to Cumberland Lodge’s podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, and other major podcast platforms.

You can find out more on here about our educational work to help young people develop ethical leadership skills.

The views expressed in these podcasts are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect those of Cumberland Lodge.

Cumberland Lodge · An intergenerational conversational for South Asian Heritage Month – Part One

Conversation transcript

00:00

Munny Purba (MP)

Welcome to a special recording of an intimate conversation with my family in celebration of South Asian Heritage Month. This year’s theme, free to be me, serves as a poignant exploration of the richness of our cultural heritage, the importance of family, and the journey towards a more inclusive society.

00:20

In this discussion recorded prior to the recent riots across the UK, we touch on the positive strides made in embracing multiculturalism and diversity across the country. However, it is important to reflect on the cyclical nature of far-right sentiment.

00:32

Recognising that challenges to these ideals often resurface in generational waves. Despite these complexities, our conversation was a celebration of intergenerational dialogue, our familial bonds and the pride that we take in our South Asian, specifically Indian, roots. So please enjoy. Listen to our candid and heartfelt conversation about identity, resilience and family.

00:57

Here at the Lodge, we think it’s important to have intergenerational conversations, and I’m here with my family to talk about our experiences of being South Asian and what it means for us personally as a collective and across the generations in my family.

01:11

This year’s theme for South Asian Heritage Month is free to be me. It’s quite a broad theme.

01:18

And that can encompass a lot of different things, things about personal identity, cultures, genders, family. But I think it would be interesting to know for everyone what does that mean for you

01:30

growing up South Asian in the UK and how you think that you can embody that or what that means personally?

01:37

Harjinder Singh Nagi (HSN)

Ohh, good afternoon. Good evening. I don’t know why I’m introducing myself to you guys.

01:42

Yeah, we know who you are.

01:44

HSN

I’m Munny’s uncle through marriage. I know it’s hard to believe, but I was very young when I got married. So I’m her, in our culture what do we call it? I’m her Phuphar. So there you go. Bit of South Asian culture there to get you started.

01:57

Perfect.

01:57

HSN

Over to you.

01:59

Rani Kaur Nagi (RKN)

Hi, I’m Munny’s Bhua and I’m married to, this is my husband over here and.

02:07

RKN

Yeah, thank you for inviting us. I’m looking forward to having the conversation.

02:10

Of course

02:12

Ravinder Purba (RP)

It’s pretty simple, I’m Munny’s cousin. Thanks for inviting me, Munny.

02:16

From both sides of the family, which is interesting as well.

02:20

Ish M’zian (IM)

Hi, I’m Ish. I’m also Munny’s cousin from both sides of the family as well.

02:26

Isha Purba (IP)

I’m Isha and I love to say I am Munny’s youngest cousin. I do love to say that.

02:33

Harpal Kaur Rai (HKR)

Hi, I would like to say that I am the oldest in the family and I am Munny’s Bhua and yeah. So thank you very much for inviting us.

02:48

Luca

Hello. I’m Luca and I’m Munny’s nephew so yeah.

02:56

So whoever wants to kick off with free to be me and what that means for you.

03:00

HSN

To sort of kick off the conversation. So it’s probably an idea to sort of give you a bit of an idea about our experiences, who we were, where we came from 50 years ago to, uh, from our South Asian sort of background.

03:19

HSN

We were sort of, are we second generation immigrants or are we first generations?

03:25

RKN

Actually, we’re actually no. We are immigrants because we came with our parents, so we’re not first,

HSN

So we are second?

RKN

We are the no, no. We are the immigrants.

HSN

We are the immigrants apparently.

RKN

So our children, our children are first generation immigrants.

03:37

HSN

Cool. OK. So we were, we came here when, our generation. My wife, me, Bala, your mother and father.

03:51

HSN

When we were very young and in fact, some parents were actually born here, right. So we came here with a very, very, very, very South Asian sort of background in terms of our outlook to life. So what does that mean we we’re sort of Indian background, we have an Indian heritage. We have certain sort of cultural things that were given to us by our parents, by our grandparents.

04:20

HSN

And those things were new to this sort of environment, right? So it was something that was not easy to sort of bring here as kids. But in hindsight, I think they were wonderful things because it helped us to sort of create an environment where we thrive as people today. So we learned a lot from our background, but we’ve also picked up a lot of great things from the environment that we live in.

04:55

HSN

But we’ve sort of, I think we’ve combined the two and created something that sort of that works and it works really well. And I think the way that if hopefully that, as the conversation sort of evolves, the different cultures that we’ve been exposed to since we came from the Southern Asian environment

05:15

HSN

will show how much we have evolved as people and become not South Asians, but actually people, right? But I wanna stop waffling so I’ll pass off.

05:29

RKN

So I’ll take it, we, we came here and I class ourselves, or myself and my sisters and my brothers, as immigrants, because we weren’t born in this country. So, although our parents were the immigrants, we were immigrants as well. And actually it’s a really difficult time for us because our parents were really brought up in the old ways. They were from villages and they didn’t know any different. And when we came here, they wanted us to lead that life.

05:58

RKN

But we had to straddle the other side as well because there was a western side and it was really difficult to marry the two up or live the two because outside we’d be wanting to go to discos, which we weren’t allowed to do, or we want to eat certain foods, but we weren’t allowed to because our parents didn’t understand it.

06:16

RKN

So it was really difficult juggling that first few years of you know, how do we actually overcome these issues and still keep our parents happy? Because at that stage, it was definitely about keeping our parents happy and our elders.

06:36

RKN

Nowadays it’s slightly different because for us definitely it’s about making sure that our children are happy rather than, you know, them keeping us happy.

06:46

HSN

That’s not. That’s not. That’s not fair.

RKN

I think so.

06:49

HSN

That’s not fair. I think our, I think our parents wanted to see us happy that I think we came into a new environment. Our parents were not sure about this environment. I think.

07:01

HKR

I think our parents wanted to protect us, more than anything.

07:03

Sorry, just a second.

07:05

HKR

I think that’s where it is really, isn’t it?

07:08

HKR

So I think our parents wanted to protect us and their culture and their culture, as in, I think as we grew up they I think they started seeing things where they probably thought that we were going to, they were going to lose us and our culture.

07:28

HKR

And I think that’s where our difficulty came. I mean, I felt I felt it definitely coming here. Sort of you know, around the age of nine or ten and, definitely what Rani said, you know, wanting to go out and that and it and it was not only that that it was the way I wanted to dress,

07:51

HKR

the kind of things I wanted to eat, the way I wanted to mix, and I know that you know I was sort of strung between the two.

08:05

HKR

And also I think parents weren’t sort of, they weren’t earning enough and there were quite a lot of restraints from their point of view as well.

08:14

And if you were to think about, then, that idea of being free to be you at that time when you first got here and arrived and had to manage all these different kind of expectations, yeah, how did do you feel like you were free to be you as a person?

08:27

HKR

No, no, I didn’t feel that I could be free and I knew that I had to strike a balance for in a way that…

08:37

HKR

In a way that I felt I needed to keep my parents happy as well as I’m, I wanted to keep myself happy, but I wasn’t. I think it it leant towards my parents way or otherwise, you know, things could go wrong. Not only with me but with my brothers and sisters.

08:58

HKR

I really, I felt the pressure anyway, definitely. I’m not sure how.

09:02

RKN

But I think there’s something else as well, because I think. So that was that was the pressure of our parents.

Yeah.

RKN

But we also had the pressure of the society that was within the UK that weren’t accepting of us. So although we might have seen ourselves as equal to them, they did not see us as equals. And the struggles that we had in order to fit in.

09:27

RKN

So either we kept our Asian identity or we gave it up and then we tried to become English, which we’re never going to. But it was a real struggle to try to do this to.

09:36

HSN

Are you guys saying that the theme is that the theme is that about being yourself, right?

09:43

RKN

No, it is it is.

09:47

HSN

Who am I? Do you feel that you were not able to be you?

RKN

So at that time, at that time we couldn’t be because we were growing up in a society that wasn’t accepting of us, yeah.

09:55

Right, yeah. Difficult.

09:56

RKN

Absolutely. But going forward, that’s made us a lot stronger.

10:01

And I felt that as I was growing up, I didn’t feel it so much because I feel that they bore the brunt of all of that.

10:08

And they went to the difficulties of being accepted and embraced, you know, eventually. And we have reaped the benefits of that a little bit.

10:17

So I’ve generally felt quite able to be, you know, Indian and South Asian in this society without any real, you know, facing any adversity or trouble or anything like that it’s been fine for me.

10:29

HSN

Do you not feel that you are you? As not South Indian, Asian or Indian, you are you and you just have a number of different influences which just happened to be some things from here, some things from there. Which is all great because.

10:43

I think, for me, interestingly, obviously, we grew up in an area that was predominantly South Asian, Indian, Pakistani sort of community. And I think growing up, for me anyway, I felt very, yeah, able to be me because everyone around me was like me.

11:05

But then going away from that community and that culture because I have spent time away from the UK even, actually the majority of my friends are not South Asian.

11:15

So, in that sense, I actually feel like I am very Indian and very South Asian compared to them.

11:23

HSN

That’s a comparison, right? It’s a comparative thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely

HSN

But you, you know, but you’re a human being first, right? So you’re, you find what’s more in common first and then you look at what’s the differences.

11:34

HSN

Whereas when we were growing up, I think you made the point that we were told the difference in us. We weren’t able to look at what was common. We were told this is what you are and, but now, as you say, you come across people from every single walk of life and it’s wonderful. Nobody says to you: You’re Indian, aren’t you? They say to you: Hi, Munny. How are you? And then the conversation evolves, right?

12:01

OK. But that’s not the first thing they ask. They, they just, they don’t assume. But yeah, I think no, you’re right in saying that. But I think that doesn’t take.

12:13

That doesn’t take away, I think, from the fact that actually still today people will look at me and think, well, some people anyway, will look me and think. Ohh, where are you from? You’re not British or you’re not English. And I think that still exists today.

12:28

HSN

I think that’s out of curiosity, I think it’s less.

12:29

HSN

Sorry, I think that’s out of curiosity, not that you’re different in the first place. Now tell us what’s the, you know?

12:35

Potentially curiosity, potentially because, yeah, they’re interested in where, where I’m from and who I am.

HSN

Right?

But still I’m different.

12:43

HSN

Of course. But so this gentleman? Yeah, he’s different to us but. But actually he’s, you know, we don’t.

12:52

But anyone else?

12:57

HKR

I mean, to tell you the truth, I would have felt that perhaps us as in when we came here, how we grew up and everything to yourself, Munny, and you know, like Luca here, and of course you know, Isha. That you would have felt and other people may have felt like, OK, because it’s the way that you dress. I know that I wasn’t allowed to have my hair open and I had to have it plaited. I mean, hence I still do it because I’ve been brought up that way.

13:25

Yeah.

13:25

HKR

But I would have thought from my point of view looking at you. Yes, what I want to know is, are you accepted in society now as at that point, I know that I went through hardship not only, not only sort of growing up, going through school, but the attempts of going into college and then, of course, nursing and not having enough job opportunities and you know there were there, there were a lot. So it wasn’t one thing. One thing impacted the other.

14:00

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think for me. Yeah. I definitely have not experienced near as much kind of restriction or any barriers like you have. I think that’s but.

14:14

RKN

What I think it is. I think is that we’re…

14:17

I’m just gonna finish what I’m saying sorry, sorry but.

14:23

Yeah, I think not. Not near as many barriers as you have, if not really any barriers necessarily when it comes to things like education going to university, you know getting jobs.

14:32

I mean, sometimes I think even certain jobs, the fact that I’m Indian and a woman, has meant that I’m able to actually get that job and do that thing.

14:39

Which is really good in a sense. So I think society has moved on to being more accepting. I think things like diversity, equity, inclusion training and you know the need for that to be a thing in society has pushed things ahead.

14:54

So I would say from what I’ve seen and heard from you and the way I’ve experienced the world, I can get along in society perfectly fine and I’m not really facing that many barriers, which is amazing. And I’m really grateful because actually you guys and our and your parents and our grandparents, bore the brunt of all of that. So you know, I’m so grateful to them to have come here and allowed us to experience this freedom.

15:20

Yeah. Like it’s amazing. So yeah, but go ahead.

RKN

So I think we’re still sensitive to that because we’ve lived through a certain way, we’ll always be very cautious. Very, you know? Is this right? Is someone speaking to me?

15:35

RKN

I mean, I still get things like, well, you know we’re not quite sure how to speak to you. Well, why is that? Because you’re an older Asian lady and should we treat you in a particular way? Should we not swear in front of you? Which is really strange. And once they get to know you, then it’s a totally different thing. Then it’s. But we still get that. Maybe the younger generation don’t have that so much, but I definitely.

15:59

RKN

And we’ve got friends and you know who we’re their only Asian friends and some of the questions that they ask us, you know, like, you know, your Phuphar wears a patka and it would be like, does he wear that to sleep? Does he wear that when he sits on the toilet? Does he, you know, things like that.

16:14

RKN

It’s nice that they’re asking, but these are we’re talking about us having been here 50, 60, 70 years are these the questions that they should still be asking.

16:25

HSN

But that’s nice. It’s actually nice people.

RKN

But they shouldn’t need to be asking those things because they should know.

HSN

Why? Why? Because people are people are curious in a positive way. They’re not being nasty. They’re asking you questions because they’re interested, right?

16:37

HSN

At the end of the day, like you know they do, you know, if people want to know my toilet habits happy days, but they’re interested.

16:44

Not happy days. We don’t wanna know. Thank you.

16:48

HSN

It’s only because of positive curiosity. They’re not asking you because they’re.

16:52

HSN

But you still have people today that have never seen a person or spoken to a person who wears a turban. 100%. Even in this country, right?

17:00

RKN

Yes.

17:02

HSN

And if somebody doesn’t ask you a question, it means sometimes you sort of think. It’s not. It’s not bad, but it’s nice to be asked because the person is then being educated. If they don’t ask, then they’re gonna go away and say ohh he’s a nice guy or he’s a bit of a doughnut?

17:17

HSN

But I don’t actually know anything. You know, I had a great opportunity to sort of find out something about you.

17:24

So people are now curious of the culture rather than just assuming something of you and then and discriminating against you. So it’s nice there.

17:28

HSN

Exactly. I think it’s it’s, it’s great. It’s if people ask you questions about you, people ask you questions about your background, your background, your background, your background. Yeah, you say.

17:40

HSN

You’ll be. It’ll be nice because you it’s a conversation piece and, out of it, somebody’s gonna walk away much, much more educated than they were when they started, right?

17:51

Yeah, yeah, I feel sorry.

17:55

I feel like, as Munny said, because we grew up in an area that was very South Asian. Growing up in that area, not being asked questions like where are you from? And then when you’ll say England because we are born in England and then getting asked the question again. Ohh, but where are you from?

18:13

It’s that second question that I still feel like some people still ask, and it’s still really difficult for us to overcome. So where I can say yes, compared to my parents, compared to my aunties and uncles, we are a lot more free to be South Asian.

18:31

There is still a bit of a, I wouldn’t say stigma, but there’s still a bit of resistance. Yeah, of not being a certain colour and I feel that when for example.

18:45

I went to Norwich University. I went to East Anglia and it was a majority, it was a white area, so being one of the few Asian people or South Asian people that were there, I found it very difficult because we would have Indian nights, or we’d have like a Diwali night, like a festival night and I’d be dressed in my suit or in a lehenga and everyone would stare at me.

19:09

And although they think it’s nice because they’re seeing something different, it feels a little bit like I’m a zoo animal and they’re. Yeah, it’s a bit like. It it, it was just it. It becomes a bit overwhelming and I think that might be because our parents never really forced, any.

19:26

They allowed us to integrate the way we wanted to, but I also think it’s because of the area that we lived in. Everyone dressed like that. Everyone talked like that. Yeah. So it was always like that.

19:37

HSN

I think that’s got a lot to do with your experience, because, if someone, if you go to East Anglia as you say there isn’t, there isn’t, it’s not as diverse and when somebody looks at you and asks you the question, you said something quite interesting. When that second question is where are you from?

19:56

Yeah.

19:58

HSN

For me, I actually don’t think it’s a problem because what they’re saying is what’s your background? And you say, well, actually this is my background.

20:05

RKN

But then they should just say that. What’s, you know? Where are you originally from? Rather than saying no, no. What I mean is, where are you from? It’s a slightly different kind of question. It’s not in the same.

20:15

HSN

I don’t take it. I don’t take it as a negative thing.

20:17

RKN

No but that’s, that’s.

20:20

But that’s different. It’s personal. And also, it’s interesting that the younger generation ,cause I hear this a lot, it’s a conversation that comes up a lot. Why people ask me where are you actually from? Like that’s what people say. But I think for you and, I, potentially for other people in your generation, that wouldn’t be that much of an issue because you’ve experienced so much worse for someone to ask you where are you actually from? It’s like, oh, I’ll tell you.

20:42

You it’s not big deal. Yeah. Is that true? What do we?

20:45

HSN

That that worse thing. Everything is relative, right? And as we say, we’re sitting. We’re sitting in a really positive environment, able to talk about experiences which are.

20:58

HSN

Which have made us what we are. You know, the people I’ve worked with, you’ve worked. You’ve all experienced, right? Not only working with people from the UK, but all over the world, right. And the things that you pick up.

21:13

HSN

The different things that you pick up from different sort of people can only enrich, right? Because the first thing, the first thing you remember if you if you sort of say look the first thing I am is a human being and everything else thereafter, right. You will find something in common with everybody.

21:33

HSN

When you say that, you know, like you say, if you are brought up in a in an environment where you say, look, you know my neighbour’s South Asian, this person’s, everywhere I look it’s South Asian. You’re exposed, your experiences are limited, right? And then when you have that experience, you say, why are you looking at me? Whereas opposed to actually they’re genuinely curious and they haven’t seen a dress like that.

21:58

HSN

And they’re probably thinking they probably wanna come to you and say, can you tell me a bit about it? But they’re scared of you because they’re saying that I don’t know this person. Right. Yeah. And. And you’ve also gotta look at when we moved to where we moved to.

22:13

HSN

The house that we live in now, we had a Jewish neighbour, Jewish neighbour. We didn’t make the first move to talk to our neighbours, the man on one side I’d gone to get the post or something. He communicated with me.

22:31

HSN

And he sort of started to talk to me and, you know, and. And he was like, yes, cup of tea and all this sort of stuff so.

22:39

HSN

This is great because he’s, you know, we’re just people and he just and he was a really nice guy, lovely family.

22:48

HSN

But it just happened to be they were Jewish. And you know what? That was enlightening as well, because I was learning about somebody else’s way of living. So I think we are a bit defensive sometimes.

22:57

RKN

But that was the experience we had when we moved into Heston. Yeah, the next-door neighbours knocked on the door and said we hope you’re not gonna make any of that smelly food?

23:05

HSN

1980s.

23:06

RKN

But that was 1980. That’s not that long ago.

That’s an important point that you’re making there.

23:09

RKN

That’s what I’m saying, that I’m just, that’s not that long ago.

23:12

Can I just say something on that?

23:14

I think I think it’s really important to point out the generational trauma that you guys have experienced that you have also passed down unintentionally to our generation. Absolutely. Yeah. There are things that you were frightened of that your parents taught you to be frightened of.

23:33

And that you taught us to also be frightened of, which made us feel like we weren’t able to necessarily spread our wings in the way that we might have chosen to do. That’s definitely my personal experience that I felt like there were certain things that I wanted to do when I was at school, university, wherever.

23:55

But I felt like I was unable to do those things because my parents taught me, it’s better to do this. It’s safer to do this and as a grown up now, looking back on that time, I really see how that trauma has been passed down from my grandparents to your generation and to us.

24:16

And that is something that is I’m hyper aware of now, being a parent myself. That’s something I do not want to pass down to my son. That I’m very mindful of and that I think it’s really important for our generation to ensure that we are ourselves very aware of that within ourselves, so we don’t pass this on.

00:24:40

Because, I completely understand where you were all coming from, but it’s something that has held us back. I think. I don’t know if it’s.

24:50

HSN

I’m actually really surprised, but no no. Don’t give me the mic cause it’s more interesting to hear what? Let me.

24:55

Yeah, I’d be interested to see what Rammy…

24:56

OK. Yeah. What does Rammy think? What does Rammy think?

25:02

I agree with Ishi. You know, that has followed us and the decisions that we make in life sometimes are, you know, influenced by that quite a lot. Even things like when you go out of London.

25:14

You know when you go to other parts of the country or places where there’s predominantly white people, you do think to yourself.

25:20

Ohh am I gonna be welcome? Are people gonna make comments or you know, things like that? You do think about that stuff because our parents thought about that stuff and it was kind of programmed into us to think, OK, are we gonna be safe there? Is everything gonna be OK? So you know that that is a thought that comes in into mind.

25:39

And you know also things like just education. I know parents were trying to do the best by us, but they took a lot of the decisions out of our hands. You know, things like the subjects that we chose at school, what we studied at the university, you know, all with good intentions. So I would never say I’m not speaking badly against, you know, our, my family and my parents and stuff.

26:01

But I just feel that we didn’t have the freedom to really choose, you know, because of the restrictions that I think our parents felt that they had. So they passed them down. So it was just a natural thing that would happen.

26:15

It’s interesting because I don’t necessarily feel the same. But again, I’m a different generation.

Different generation.

00:26:25

And this is why it’s interesting.

Because there’s a big difference between us and me and you.

And this is why I said at the start, that even though we’re the same generation, I think we had different experiences.

26:28

Yeah, definitely.

26:34

Because I think I’m the youngest in my immediate family.

26:38

And potentially my brother may have felt certain, a certain way, but because they’ve experienced things, it’s led to me not experiencing those things because potentially my parents are a bit more relaxed because like, it’s actually gonna be fine. As the years go on, it’s actually gonna be fine. The kids can do what they want because they’ll be fine now.

26:51

Yeah, yeah.

26:56

Yeah, I mean. Even I feel the difference between myself. You know, Rammy’s, my, she’s my older sister by four years. But she broke so many boundaries for me, even.

27:05

So, it’s such a massive difference, only four years between us. But there is a huge difference than our younger sister. I broke barriers for her.

Yeah.

So it’s literally, it is not, I’d say less so in generations now, more so within the generations. Just five, 10, 15 years is such a massive difference. Our families are taking leaps forward now, and that’s something that our generation needs to really take even further.

Yeah, definitely.

I don’t think. I think colour is, you know, colour is colour. Yeah, culture is fantastic. But culture should never hold you back. And culture should never stop you from being who you are inside.