Resource type: Podcast
Democracy 101 is the monthly podcast series from Cumberland Lodge giving a comprehensive introduction to democracy. In this episode, we speak to Alan Renwick from The Constitution Unit at UCL to explore what it means to have a democratic system, what that looks like in the UK, and how we can influence our future.
You can subscribe to Cumberland Lodge’s podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, SoundCloud, and other major podcast platforms.
If you want to find out more about the work of Cumberland Lodge, find out more here.
The views expressed in these podcasts are those of the speakers and not necessarily reflect those of Cumberland Lodge.
Episode transcript
00:00 – 00:29
Munny Purba (MP)
Hello and welcome to Democracy 101, a monthly podcast series by Cumberland Lodge offering a comprehensive introduction to the workings of democracy and its significance in the world today. In our first episode, we are joined by Alan Renwick, who is a Professor of Democratic Politics and Deputy Director of The Constitution Unit at University College London. He works extensively on ways of improving how democracy works.
00:29 – 01:00
MP
Together, we will be exploring what it means to have a democratic system, what that looks like in the UK, and how we can influence our future. Thank you for joining us, Alan. What we like to do on this podcast is kick off with a bit of an icebreaker, a bit of a question for our guests. So the question we have for you is, if you were to choose an animal to be the leader of the animal kingdom, what animal would you choose and why?
01:00 – 01:19
Alan Renwick (AR)
This is a great question. So what would I choose? Well, we want we want a nicely democratic animal, well don’t we. So we don’t want, we don’t want an animal that’s just going to think of itself or dictate. So we don’t want a cat or a polar bear that wouldn’t work.
MP
Interesting.
AR
We want an animal that’s going to collaborate.
01:19 – 01:35
AR
But we also want it to have a bit of kind of individual spark and personality and be a bit creative. So we don’t want a sheep either, because the sheep, and then they’re just going to follow follow all the time. So don’t want a sheep or an antelope. Definitely we don’t want an ant or a termite or anything like that.
01:35 – 01:53
AR
And we want it to be reasonably kind of thoughtful and careful and take its time to make good decisions. So I think, I think I’m going to go for an elephant.
MP
An elephant.
AR
Like an elephant. I think an elephant could be great. So, you know, it lives in a herd. It’s quite kind of co-operative and and caring and kind towards other elephants.
01:53 – 02:09
AR
But at the same time, you know, each individual elephant has its own set of personality and its own take on the world. And elephants are quite kind of careful and slow and don’t move too quickly. So, yeah, I think I think a lot of it would be great.
MP
An elephant to me sounds like a great choice.
02:09 – 02:32
MP
And in fact, the elephant is my favourite animal. So…
AR
Well, there we go.
MP
That’s great, we can agree on that one. So we’re here to talk about all things democracy. The podcast series will hopefully introduce lots of people to the idea of what that is, what it means for them personally, as well as how they can get more involved in it.
02:32 – 02:54
MP
But I think what’s important is to kick off with what democracy actually means?
Alan Renwick (AR)
Well it’s a great question Munny, and it’s fantastic to be in this conversation. So democracy, the word itself comes from Ancient Greece. So more than 2000 years ago, when the Greeks and their little city states were, were working out how to how to govern themselves. And so it comes from two words.
02:54 – 03:17
AR
So demos is the people and cratos is rule. So basically it means that the rule of the people. So it’s that all of the people able to take part in decisions about how collectively they should be governed, rather than just having one person, which, you know, as monarchy or dictatorship, we would normally use that word today, or just having a few people taking part. So in a democracy, the idea at least is that everyone is able to participate in processes of governing.
03:17 – 03:39
MP
Okay. So it has lots of historical roots, but we see it today as this idea of us having a voice and a vote. Would you agree with that kind of terminology now?
AR
Yeah. And being able to vote is really a central part of democracy as it exists in the world today.
03:39 – 03:59
AR
So I guess it’s maybe useful just to think about how it worked in Ancient Greece, because in Ancient Greece it was done in, in cities and the word city, you know, we tend to think of places with millions of people these days. But for the Ancient Greeks, that was just a few thousand people made a city. So they were able to get together in the marketplace and all of them come together and make decisions collectively.
04:00 – 04:22
AR
But now we’ve got big countries, you know, 60, 70 million people in the UK these days. There’s no way we can all get together and make every decision. So democracy mainly works through representation. So we vote in order to choose who’s going to represent us in Parliament and in government and then they do most of the work of making the decisions because, you know, there’s just so many different decisions to be made.
04:22 – 04:44
AR
And it’s all quite complex, often just working out, trading off different interests that different people have in order to work out what the best policies would be.
MP
So the current UK system of democracy is quite complicated, and I think it would be a good idea to think about how that system works and what that looks like for the UK.
04:44 – 05:09
AR
Yeah. So fundamentally we start with the voters. They’re the core of the democratic system. The voters elect their representatives who come together in Parliament, in the House of Commons, sitting in Westminster, in London. And then the way it works in the UK is that you’ve got various political parties in Parliament, and normally one of those has a majority of the seats in Parliament, a majority of the representation in Parliament.
05:09 – 05:33
AR
So it is able to form the Government, and the Government is what makes most of the kind of day-to-day decisions about the direction of policy. And then Parliament is there to kind of discuss that and check it and make sure that it agrees that that is the right direction. But most of the direction is being decided really by the Government, headed, of course, by the Prime Minister, currently Rishi Sunak.
05:33 – 05:51
AR
And then, you know, every normally 4 or 5 years we have another election that we go back to the voters again and elect a new Parliament. And all of that process kind of starts again. So that’s the sort of UK-wide system. And then across the whole of the UK, there’s also local councils doing things in their local areas.
05:51 – 06:11
AR
And then parts of the UK also have something in between. So Scotland has its own Parliament, Wales has its own parliament and Northern Ireland has its Assembly. But basically, yeah, we have those various different levels and roughly the same kind of system is working at each of those levels.
MP
Okay. And I’ve also heard a lot about the House of Lords and that system there.
06:11 – 06:28
MP
And I think that’s quite a unique system. Maybe you can talk a bit about the House of Lords as well.
AR
Yeah. So I mentioned Parliament there and I mentioned the House of Commons, but that’s actually only one half of Parliament. So Parliament has two chambers. So a chamber is where all of the people get together and discuss things.
06:28 – 06:53
AR
So all of the MPs elected by voters get together in the House of Commons. But then there’s also the second chamber called the House of Lords. And I mean, that has a history going back many, many centuries. And originally it basically represented the aristocracy, the senior people around the monarch. Now it mostly comprises people who’ve been appointed by prime ministers over the years, and they’re there for life.
06:53 – 07:11
AR
So, you know, some of them have been there for 30, 40 years, and that doesn’t have as much power as the House of Commons. But the House of Lords kind of looks at proposals. And actually, I guess there are two views on the House of Lords. So a lot of people just look at the House of Lords and see that it’s appointed. And it’s also got some people who are there on the hereditary principle that they’ve inherited their positions from their ancestors.
07:11 – 07:31
AR
A lot of people look at that and just think, well, that’s crazy. How can you possibly defend that in a democracy? But then the other view is that a lot of the people who there have been appointed because they have expertise and experience. So, you know, there are people who’ve been in government who kind of know how the system works.
07:31 – 08:05
AR
There are senior scientists and people from business, you know, people with a range of different experience, and they can bring that expertise to discussions about policy proposals. And what they tend to do is kind of look at the detail and make sure that the detail will work and won’t break any basic principles, rather than determining the overall direction. So there’s an interesting kind of debate, I guess, about the House of Lords. In terms of democracy, it just makes no sense at all. In terms of ensuring that the decisions made by Parliament have been thought through carefully, it actually probably serves quite a useful function.
08:05 – 08:29
MP
Okay. So really there to hold the Government to account for the bills which could potentially turn into laws. Okay. Yeah. I think there’s always room for discussion, I suppose when it comes to what Parliament looks like, because as a democracy, you know, we should have a say on these things. So that’s why I think recently there’s been quite a lot of conversation about it.
08:29 – 08:53
MP
And, and I suppose that’s another thing with democracy is it doesn’t necessarily have to stay the same. We can make changes to it if there’s collective want for that. And the beauty of it as well, it’s ever changing, it’s ever evolving as society does.
AR
Democracy’s been evolving all the time. You know, there have been lots of reforms that have taken place, top-down reforms where the people in power have decided to change the system.
08:53 – 09:16
AR
For example, 30 years ago, the Scottish Parliament didn’t exist, Welsh Parliament didn’t exist. We didn’t have the Human Rights Act. So we didn’t have so much kind of protection of basic human rights in the UK. All of these were reforms that took place. And then also the system just kind of naturally evolves over time as well. So something like the rise of social media has made a big change to how our democracy works in practice.
09:17 – 09:42
AR
And, you know, no one decided in Westminster and Whitehall in the corridors of power that this was going to happen. It’s something that has developed that much more kind of organically, if you like, over time. So in different ways, this democracy is constantly changing and evolving. So mainly what regular voters, regular members of the public are doing is taking part in elections and deciding who those representatives should be.
09:42 – 10:04
AR
So yeah, when we when we think about modern democracy, often it’s elections and the freedom of those elections and making sure those elections are properly fair processes whereby people can choose their own representatives that are really at the heart of the democratic system. But I guess it’s important to say that you know, democracy isn’t just that. Democracy is more than just elections.
10:04 – 10:25
AR
So there are other ways in which we can have voice in the political system. So, you know, we can we can have voice through protest, through expressing what we think, that kind of thing. And that can be incredibly important because elections are mainly about working out who’s kind of in the majority. Which of the options has most support.
10:25 – 10:55
AR
But quite often there can be important viewpoints that are in the minority and, you know, people who have interests that are really important, that are not going to form the majority. So sometimes it’s really important for the minority to be able to kind of push the majority and make sure the majority is listening and protest and, you know, getting out on the streets or writing to your MP or all of these kinds of things are ways of getting your voice heard in democracy that are really important alongside elections as well.
10:55 – 11:21
MP
That’s really interesting, because when I think about democracy or when I used to think about it, I thought it was just about going out, when they tell us to and voting for someone that, you know, you’re talking about bringing more of our voice into the conversation and protest being part of the process of democracy as well. I wonder if you can maybe speak to the idea of what else can we as citizens do to be more involved in democracy other than voting?
11:21 – 11:44
AR
Yeah, so we’ve mentioned voting. We’ve mentioned protest and going out on the streets and I mentioned there actually writing to your MP and just, you know, having contact with people who are in elected positions. And it’s not just MPs, of course. There’s also local councillors. And, you know, an MP can feel quite remote sometimes. You know, there’s one MP for every 100,000 people roughly.
11:44 – 12:07
AR
So they’ve got a lot of people trying to contact them. And inevitably, you know, they just can’t spend all that much time on any one individual. But local councillors, there’s lots, lots more of them, at much more local level around the country. So having conversations with your local councillor about local issues, can be a great way of kind of starting to get involved in politics and thinking about how you can make sure your voice is being heard.
12:07 – 12:25
AR
And then, of course, you know, there’s the media and social media, which give us kind of ways of getting involved in politics that didn’t exist a generation ago. So there are new ways in which we can make sure that our voice is being heard. And then I guess I would just add a whole kind of extra dimension on top of that as well, actually.
12:25 – 12:47
AR
So we’ve been talking there about ways of ensuring that your voice can be heard, and there are lots of different ways of doing that. And that is a central part of what democracy is. But in some ways, kind of even more fundamental is working out what you think in the first place, a kind of working out what views you want to voice, you want to express in the first place.
12:47 – 13:15
AR
And that process of kind of working out what’s happening in politics, working out what the issues are, working out what the options are. That’s also just an incredibly important thing for us all to be doing. And then, you know, when we are voting or when we are out on the streets or we’re writing to our MPs or councillors or whatever it might be, we’re doing that in a way that, you know, we can be confident is really going to further our own interests or the interests of our communities or the interests of the country as a whole.
13:15 – 13:34
AR
So I think that that kind of second dimension of democracy, if you like, is something that it’s really important to have in the mix, too.
MP
Okay, great. So being able to find information that will then inform your decision about what matters to you and then therefore who you want to be your representative. Yeah, that’s I think that’s really key.
13:34 – 14:03
MP
And the idea of social media being such a big part of our lives now, I think that’s a really important point to mention. And actually, later on in the series, we will be talking a bit more about the ideas of good and bad information and how to make sure we’re putting out good information and finding good information. I think also, what might be interesting is to think about, other than democracy, which is the system in which we live at the moment in the UK, is that a given system?
14:03 – 14:27
MP
Is that always the system that we can and will have, or are there other options?
AR
Well there are other options, and there are many countries around the world that don’t have democracy. So I guess the main alternatives remain the same alternatives actually as for the Ancient Greeks, were first thinking about this more than 2,000 years ago, so you can have rule by one person, basically you can have dictatorship.
14:27 – 14:48
AR
And I mean, I guess, Russia, led by Vladimir Putin is perhaps the most famous example of dictatorship that is very much kind of directed by one person, existing today. And then you can also have systems where it’s maybe not quite one person, but it’s a group of people who are very much in charge.
14:48 – 15:09
AR
They hold power and they’re controlling what everyone else is able to do. And maybe China is the most famous example of that around the world today. So, you know, the leader of China, is quite a famous person, Xi Jinping. Many people will have heard of him, but, he’s part of a kind of system with the Chinese Communist Party leading that country.
15:09 – 15:32
AR
But both of those systems are systems in which it is not the case, that most people’s voice has a clear way of being heard. You know, we don’t have that kind of regular process of elections that are free and fair. So China just doesn’t have elections at the national level at all. Russia does have elections. We just had a presidential election in Russia very recently, but it wasn’t a free election.
15:32 – 15:53
AR
So it wasn’t possible for anyone to be a candidate. And there was not free information. So people were subject to a great deal of propaganda. people weren’t really able to make up their minds as to what they wanted. So those kinds of systems do exist. Potentially in the UK we could find ourselves seeing our democratic system being taken away.
15:53 – 16:23
AR
And, you know, we’ve seen that in countries in the past, and it’s unlikely that it would suddenly kind of explode in one big moment. But I think there are people who really worry, actually, that there are processes that can cause a democratic system gradually to kind of erode and it becomes weaker over time. And that can allow people with a desire for power in their own hands to kind of take over. And it can be increasingly difficult for the wider population to prevent that.
16:23 – 16:44
AR
And you know, some people will worry that in the United States, for example, today we’ve been seeing steps kind of in that direction and that we should be worried about whether democracy is going to be as stable in the United States as it’s been at the past. And we haven’t quite seen that in the UK. You know, we don’t see quite the same sort of level of threat to democracy, but it’s certainly imaginable that that could happen.
16:44 – 17:03
AR
And I think that that would be a really worrying thing to happen. You know, if you look at a country like Russia, for example, people are not nearly as free as in a democracy. And we tend to see that in most dictatorships around the world that people’s personal freedoms are not protected in the same way as they would be in a democracy.
17:04 – 17:29
AR
A dictator like that is very unlikely to care about the interests of everyone. In all their diversity around the country. They’re likely to want to have their line on what’s the way forward. And to ignore different viewpoints. And also just kind of practically in terms of how well the public services are run, how well the economy is run, it tends to go less well in a non-democracy than it does in a democracy.
17:29 – 17:51
AR
So I think democracy is an incredibly important thing, actually. And if we want to have a healthy society and healthy communities, and if we want our own lives to go well, then actually it’s really fundamentally important that we care about the health of our democratic system and try to keep it as strong as possible, because there are always dangers that it could it could weaken over time.
17:51 – 18:14
MP
Yeah. There has been lots of conversation about the breakdown, perhaps, of democracy and what that means. But I think for me, it’s important to stress that personally, I will always hope that I will have my voice heard and my voice will matter. And getting involved with democracy and voting and, and, you know, if I’m not happy with something going out and protesting about it, that’s kind of my way to have my voice heard.
18:14 – 18:34
MP
And that’s what I think democracy is. So, you know, I hope that continues, and I hope we’re able to collectively build a stronger version of that. And for young people out there, I hope that’s something that you’re hoping for, too.
AR
Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. And I think the key thing to remember with democracy is that its health depends on what all of us do.
18:34 – 19:08
AR
You know, often we kind of think, well, it’s the people in charge who are responsible for whether the system works or not. But actually, in a democracy, fundamentally, it comes down to us, the people in charge are doing the day-to-day decision making. But if we are not pushing them in the right direction and making sure that they’re keeping on the good path, and listening to the views of people around the country, and if we’re voting for people who make grand promises that aren’t actually going to work in reality, then then it’s just not going to work.
19:08 – 19:32
AR
So the responsibility is for us to think quite carefully about how can we help the democratic system function, how can we choose representatives, who are who are going to care about that democracy and care about everyone in the country and care about doing a good job. And that’s that’s a hard job that we have in choosing those representatives. But it’s also just an incredibly important job and one that I hope we all care about very much.
19:32 – 20:00
MP
You talked a lot there about choosing the right people for us and choosing the right people for our issues, personal and community based and local. Sometimes I think the idea of democracy or voting and choosing someone that will talk to those issues that I care about seems a little bit far away. I don’t often know where to find out whether these people are going to do what they say they’re going to do, but for me, I think I try to keep as informed as I possibly can.
20:00 – 20:17
MP
I wonder if you can talk to that bit, how we can try our best to keep informed about the different parties and what people say they’re going to do?
AR
Yeah. You’re right. That’s so important. And it’s not easy. You know, there’s so much information out there and so many people are kind of shouting and trying to get our attention.
20:17 – 20:46
AR
And particularly on social media, you know, there’s a lot of misinformation. There’s a lot of very misleading stuff out there. There’s a lot of people, sadly, who are trying to mislead us and are trying to kind of push a particular agenda. So it’s really important firstly, I think, to be listening to a range of different voices and not just to listen to people who agree with you, but also kind of seek out other points of view and see what different perspectives there are on these issues.
20:46 – 21:10
AR
And second, it’s important always when you’re reading something to think about, am I sure that this is trustworthy. Am I sure that this person is saying what they really believe to be true? Is giving accurate information? Or might there be might there be a bit of a problem? And I guess, in the media, you know, we have some media organisations whose job it is to, to do this kind of thing well.
21:10 – 21:48
AR
So I think sometimes it’s important to seek out those kinds of sources, but don’t just kind of rely on voices that sound like they’re saying something. The things that you immediately agree with, things that kind of make you laugh, that kind of thing, that’s great, but it’s not enough on its own.
MP
I know I’ve spoken to a lot of young people and they say, well the politicians don’t care about my issues and they don’t really listen. I read something recently, I heard something recently that said, if all 18 to 25 year olds voted, then you’re going to be sure that the politicians will have policy that affects you because you now matter to them in that sense.
21:48 – 22:11
MP
So that’s why voting and going out there and having your voice heard means your issues will be heard, because the politicians are now listening, because you’re the voters and you matter to them.
AR
Yeah, we have lots of evidence that politicians listen to older voters more than they listen to younger people. And that is basically because older people are more likely to vote than younger people.
22:11 – 22:33
AR
So if young people want their voices to be heard, then it’s just so important to go out there and vote. And that, you know, that is the the main way, you can get your voice guaranteed to be heard in the political system, and politicians will pay attention to the ballot box more than anything else. Always, always use that vote.
22:33 – 22:52
AR
If whenever you’re able to vote, make sure you go and vote.
MP
Yep. Brilliant. I will encourage all my nieces and nephews to do that when they can, I’m a big advocate for that. But of course, democracy, as you said there, isn’t always perfect and there will be things that at some points are working better than others.
22:52 – 23:09
MP
But for me, I don’t necessarily think that always means that democracy is failing or or we should have a completely different system. You know, there’s peaks and troughs to everything in life. But for me, I don’t know how you feel about it. That doesn’t mean we should stop believing in the system of having our voices heard.
AR
Yeah, I think that’s totally right.
23:09 – 23:38
AR
And, you know, there’s no democracy on the planet that is perfect. And, you know, I tend to think that a healthy democracy is one that provides rule by and for all the people. That’s the the way I normally kind of define a healthy democracy. As a rule, by the people means that people’s own voices are driving what happens and rule for the people means that the system is delivering for people in their own lives and helping them live happy and successful lives.
23:38 – 23:59
AR
And that applies to all the people. So it’s not just that you can have an elite doing great and that everyone else is suffering. You need to kind of make sure that that is happening across the whole country. And no real democracy succeeds in that completely. There are always ways in which we could have stronger rule by the people and make sure that people’s voices are being heard more effectively.
24:00 – 24:22
AR
We could definitely always have ways in which the system is working better for the people. And, you know, we have huge problems with inequality and discrimination in society. That means that the system isn’t delivering for everyone in the way that we want it to. But the only way to improve is by getting democracy working better. You know, there’s no there’s no alternative to democracy
24:22 – 24:47
AR
that would work any better. If you want your voice to be heard, then you need a system that listens to that voice. If you want your, your ideas, to be implemented, if you want your community’s interests to be respected, then the only way is to be part of the system, voicing your concerns and making sure that those concerns are heard.
24:47 – 25:06
AR
And you know, that will continue. And the more we are involved, the more we can we can shape that evolution process and make sure that it’s going on a good track rather than a bad track.
MP
Great. And then I think that gives me quite a lot of hope to think that as society moves on and we get the more diversity or we get a different sort of population, we’re able to then have a say in, in shaping that.
25:06 – 25:34
MP
I mean, that gives me a lot of hope and hopefully that gives a lot of other people a lot of hope. We talked a lot there about a lot of things, and I hope that was interesting to you all. It was interesting for me. I learned quite a lot. And if you are interested and continue to be interested, please do continue listening to these podcasts to learn more about democracy, but also go out and do your own research and and find out what’s important to you and how you’re able to have more of a voice on those things.
25:34 – 26:06
MP
So thank you so much, Alan, for being part of this conversation. It’s been really insightful. I’ve, like I said, I learned so much and it’s been lovely speaking to you about it.
AR
Great to be here. Thank you so much and good luck for the rest of the podcast series. I’m looking forward to listening.
Thanks for listening. You can find out more about the work we do at Cumberland Lodge by visiting cumberlandlodge.ac.uk You can also find us on LinkedIn, Instagram, X, Facebook, and TikTok @CumberlandLodge.