Dialogue & Debate - Civility in Politics

Resource type: Webinar

This Dialogue & Debate webinar was broadcast to a live online audience on 5 March 2024, exploring Civility in Politics.

Polarised and vitriolic debates are a problem for democracy, yet increasingly politicians and public officials are having to deal with intimidation and abuse – sometimes with tragic consequences. This is particularly an issue for women and those from minority backgrounds.

With a general election looming in the UK, the tone of political debate, both online and in-person, is already steeped in anger. Yet, as the recently published findings of the Jo Cox Foundation’s Civility Commission highlight, a more inclusive, fairer, and kinder public space is possible.

To explore how we have reached a point of toxic politics, and how we can move beyond it, Cumberland Lodge is pleased to host a conversation with Hannah Phillips, Consultant with the Jo Cox Foundation, who has led on the work of the Civility Commission, and Jess Phillips, Labour MP for Birmingham Yardley, who has been on the receiving end of much abuse in her political career.

Cumberland Lodge · Dialogue & Debate: Civility in Politics

Webinar Transcript

00:00 – 00:22

Professor Melissa Butcher (MB)

Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Melissa Butcher and I am the Programme Director here at Cumberland Lodge. Welcome to everyone online to our Dialogue & Debate this month. And we’re going to be focusing on civility or perhaps more importantly, incivility in politics. And this theme is part of the work that we’re doing on the youth and democracy project, in particular at the Cumberland Lodge at the moment.

00:22 – 00:42

So we’re joined by Hannah Phillips, a consultant with the Jo Cox Foundation, who has been working on producing the recently launched report of the Jo Cox Civility Commission. That report is titled No Place in Politics Tackling Abuse and Intimidation. Hannah is also a former Cumberland Lodge Fellow and just joining us right in the nick of time. Thanks, Jess.

00:42 – 01:03

We’d also joined by Jess Phillips, Labour MP for Birmingham Yardley, who I think it’s fair to say has received more than her fair share of abuse during her during her time in politics. Thank you both for joining us today. You’re very welcome to Cumberland Lodge.

Jess Phillips MP (JP)

Hello. So sorry I was running at my last meeting, run over wildly, which is what happens all the time, though.

We assumed it was something like that,

01:03 – 01:26

Jess, thank you so much for joining us. In the past couple of weeks, I think it’s fair to say we’ve seen the government in particular issues around this question of civility or incivility in politics. The government said to commit an extra £31 million to increase security for MPs. We have politicians and police struggling with new forms of protest, including direct forms of confrontation near politicians homes.

01:26 – 01:52

We’ve heard language that’s considered Islamophobic and anti-Semitic. So, Hannah, maybe to you first, can you can you give us an overview of the nature and extent of the problem of abuse and intimidation in politics that you’ve found in your report?

Hannah Phillips (HP)

Yes, absolutely. And first of all, just to say thank you so much for inviting me here, and also Jess and I are not actually related, even though we have the same last name and thank you to Jess and to the Lodge for highlighting this issue.

01:52 – 02:09

One thing I would say is this isn’t a new issue. I think there’s been a lot of focus in the last few weeks, but this, the issue of abuse, intimidation, and harassment in politics is something that is not new in politics, but it does seem to have become worse in the last ten or so years, and particularly the last few years.

02:09 – 02:37

Another thing to emphasise is that this impacts those working in politics at all levels. And it’s not just employees, but councillors, police and crime committed commissioners, members of devolved administrations and local councillors, parish councillors. And importantly, it’s not just politicians who are impacted, but it’s staff and families. So I think that’s something that’s important in this issue. And something that’s really important is that abuse can impact anyone who’s working in politics.

02:37 – 02:57

But it does evidence suggests that there is this disproportionate impact on women, which is even more pronounced among those from minority ethnic backgrounds. So it’s very appropriate that we’re discussing this issue in the run up to International Women’s Day. And violence and abuse can take a range of forms. Melissa, you talked about and of and new forms of protest.

02:57 – 03:16

Social media is a kind of newer form of this, but it is not just online abuse. And online abuse can be very related to offline abuse, as it were. There’s intimidation and meetings, stalking and harassment. And of course, it’s important to remember that two MPs have been murdered in the last eight years. Jo Cox and Sir David Amess.

03:16 – 03:42

And I think it’s important to acknowledge for Jess and colleagues that Jo and David were colleagues, and I know for Jess, Jo was a very close friend. So I think that’s important to recognise that this is a very, very important issue and it has gone to the extreme of murder. And there are other forms that are more everyday the online abuse is pretty regular for a lot of the people that we spoke to, talked about that certain forms of abuse were no kind of expected and normalized.

03:42 – 04:11

You know, it’s kind of normal for staff that no part of their job is to like go through social media and decide what they should report to the police. And that is just an expected part of being in politics. And we can add that at The Jo Cox Foundation we don’t believe it should be an expected part of politics. And the final thing I’ll say is the reason that we are so that we’re working on this issue and think it’s an important issue is not because of the way that Jo Cox died, but because of the way she lived.

04:11 – 04:52

She was passionate about getting more women into politics, representative democracy. And this issue does threaten representative democracy. There is evidence that current politicians are not speaking out in the way that they might because of fear of abuse. And there is an evidence that people are not stepping into politics because of abuse. And one of the kind of most shocking pieces of evidence that we found for our report was research by Girlguiding UK that shows that the issue of online abuse is shaping the career choices of girls and young women with more than a third off from doing certain jobs, including politics, Because of the abuse high profile women get online.

04:52 – 05:24

And if there’s not no, no. When these girls go into careers and are not entering politics and people from diverse backgrounds not entering politics, that will have a huge impact on our representative democracy, which is such an important part of our politics.

Great. Thanks, Hannah. Just before we pick up on that point about the impact of this abuse with Jess, just a reminder to people who are listening online, please feel free to submit any questions that you have in the chat bar and we’ll come to those a bit later on in the in the dialogue.

05:24 – 06:04

Jess, just over to you. You’ve been on the receiving end of much abuse, including, I believe in the report, 600 rape threats via social media in one evening, one evening alone. How does that impact on you personally?

It’s funny because I have to think of it in in terms of then and now. The impact on me now has become so normalised as to be almost like most things I have to say in in women’s lives, a tolerable level of pain is expected.

06:04 – 06:52

And the way it made me feel when it was first happening was I was just it was just really, really shocking. I wouldn’t say I felt scared that any of it was going to come to fruition. The reality of it I didn’t believe was going to come to fruition, but I think in my case they used the situation of rape, which common sexual violence is the way to go with female politicians or just females generally, but specifically because I speak so much about the issue of rape and when people invoke the idea of rape and sexual violence, to me that isn’t it isn’t theoretical.

06:52 – 07:22

It is very, very, very real. And so the at first it made me feel well, I was just shocked. And to be perfectly honest, I was shocked to action. Initially, that was my main response was to do something about it. The way I feel about it now, and I have to say I find the last few weeks to be trying in this conversation about members of Parliament safety because I am no less safe currently than I ever have been.

07:22 – 07:40

Now, that’s because I live my life at a constant state of being at heightened risk. That won’t be a year in my life where I’m not in a courtroom having to put off my holiday plans. For example, I’ve just been given a court date for the 29th of July, and I was a bit like, man, what if I want to go on holiday?

07:40 – 08:07

Luckily not knowing when the election is means basically going on holiday is a no no for me. But the the way we, me and my family have all gotten, completely got used to it now. And I don’t I don’t micro-manage things particularly because things are systematically put around me well enough now that it has become a workable part of my working life.

08:07 – 08:36

Now, in the period in between those two instances, I am medicated for anxiety and I literally sat with a psychiatrist. And that and my my, I’m going to swear and I my my grandfather used to basically say “just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean the bastards aren’t trying to get you”. It like you can’t really medicate for a trauma that you have suffered an incidence of trauma and threats and violence if that threatened violence is still in place.

08:36 – 08:59

So I both have to try and deal with the traumas that I have suffered. The greatest amongst them, the most triggering trauma, of course. And in fact, tonight, I’m going to have dinner with her children is the murder of Jo Cox. That is a trauma I will never get over. And I just have to learn to live with it in my life like any trauma.

08:59 – 09:27

So but I have today. I don’t I don’t you know, like I forget. I mean, it’s just tedious is actually the way it manifests in my life is just tedious. And I like it just means work, extra work. And especially when you’re talking about women politicians suffering from it all. Women politicians are already doing loads of free labour as women in society have to do in caring and various of the things that women are just expected today.

09:27 – 09:52

I have to also do loads of free labour with the Justice Department. I have to go to court a lot. I have to spend hours. I can’t tell you if you’ve never given a police statement. How long it takes is absolutely ridiculous. Seriously, get with the program, the police, it takes hours. I once gave a police statement for nine and a half hours on the basis of the volume of abuse that one man had sent me.

09:52 – 10:12

And it took nine and a half hours.

And that’s just one? Sorry Jess, that was just one man?

One instance, he’s in prison now. And that and, you know, actually what he was saying to me, it just felt like noise, like I’m not it didn’t upset me. It didn’t scare me. But then in having to deal with it, like I had to take an entire day out of work.

10:12 – 10:41

And when you’re sat there going through all the evidence and putting it all into files with the police officer in front of you, that’s when it hits you. That’s when it’s like, my gosh, this is just so physically tiring on me and time sapping on me and that the only time I ever I’ve ever thought, I can’t do this any more than even one occasion, not even after Jo being killed

10:41 – 11:04

and then David Amess, was I went to an event with my son to see a children’s author that he liked when he was about ten, nine or ten, and it got crowded in the room that we were in because this person is famous and we we had been invited to go into this back room to meet him.

11:04 – 11:23

And there were lots of people hubbubbing around. And I noticed that my son, he had been very excited, is not an unconfident child with standing with his back against the wall in the hubbub. And I just thought, you all right? And he was just like, you know, I just I wanted to stand near the door in case we needed to escape.

11:23 – 11:55

And I thought, if I keep my back against the wall, no one can hurt me from behind. I just thought that is because my children have had to become hyper alert. And I worked in women’s refuges for many, many years. I’ve watched children who have hyper who have to be hyper alert of danger and risk. And I realised that this sort of uncontrollable situation in the room for my son made him feel like he had to be like, you know, when a nine-year-old is looking for the exits, you’ve got a problem.

11:56 – 12:24

And that’s the only time I thought that that’s it. I can’t I can’t I cannot do this anymore. And the moment when Westminster was attacked, my kids’ school had to try and they had to keep the kids in school so that they couldn’t switch on their phones until they’d found both my children, pulled them out, explained to them that I was okay because my kids, which is going to come out of everyone, is going to turn on their phones, see that this Westminster has been attacked.

12:24 – 12:48

And for my kids that would be harrowing. So the kids were kept in school like that’s the kind that’s the effect that you don’t think about it. That’s the work that has to go on around me and my family is that people have to change their systems fundamentally. And, you know, 1,500 children have to be locked in classrooms, not looking at their phones in order that my children could try and live a semblance of a normal life.

12:48 – 13:06

That that’s the problem.

And I think that’s really something that comes out of the report highlighting the fact that it’s not just MPs that suffer from this, but it’s families, it’s staff members, and there’s a cascade effect to it as well. Jess, do you think the new package of measures that the Government’s just announced, is it going to be enough?

13:06 – 13:33

Well, I don’t know really what the details of it are yet. What I would say is that it’s nothing that I haven’t had for years. So there’s there was classically during the Brexit debate, there was ten of us identified and post Jo’s murder. And this is the problem and as somebody who’s worked in this line of work for a long time is risk assessment is actually relatively pointless because nobody would have risk assessed Jo.

13:33 – 14:04

Nobody would have risk assessed David Amess as being high risk, especially David Amess. Jo would have would have probably flagged up on a number of different metrics for being a possible risk. And that being that the most at risk members of Parliament when they initially did that risk assessment were all women, Labour women above the who, who represented above the M25 basically, even though there were, you know, like the best example of the person who gets the most abuse is Diane Abbott.

14:04 – 14:28

without a shadow of a doubt, like she gets way, way more abuse, the actual risk of threat and violence that they perceive that abuse turning into was apart from there was one Tory woman and that was Anna Soubry at the time that we were at risk of violence and threat. And within that it was almost all of the Jewish women MPs at the time.

14:28 – 15:12

And I imagine that that would remain the case if any of them were still members of Parliament. And we note that none of them, none of those three women on that list were are still members of Parliament. And that is, you know, that’s not that’s, that’s not correlation, that is causation. And so at that point we were all given you know, I have been able to be driven around should I desire to be am I have close protection when I request it so and the truth is that members of Parliament are our worst nightmares in this like because I don’t request it. I don’t want to I don’t want security, I don’t want bombproof

15:12 – 15:32

windows. I’ve got no stained glass windows. I was always like, if we’re at bomb level, they’re just going to shame you when we walk outside to just keep the nice windows.

I see dark humour is one way of coping.

You gotta laugh at it, you’ve gotta laugh. I mean, I worked like I say, I’ve worked in rape crisis, in human trafficking.

15:33 – 15:58

I’ve seen terrible things. And I know that laughing about it and actually learning to it. And it’s all terrible. I don’t want those those societal ills to, too. But you have to have dark humor in order to cope with it like you have to. Yeah.

So how did we get to this point? Maybe, Hannah, you could come in here and you mentioned social media, but is there something else that’s going on in society?

15:58 – 16:27

I mean, social media is just a conduit. Why is it that we have this kind of torrent of abuse and anger that that’s pouring forth on to elected politicians?

Yeah, it’s an excellent question. I think there are various reasons and it’s quite a complex issue. Like so if, you know, MPs were being abused by one certain group, it might be a bit easier to go, okay, we you know, it’s like, you know, from like the far-right white supremacists,

16:27 – 16:47

we know we can focus on them, but it’s from all over society. So I think that is something that makes it quite complex. I think so. As you say, social media is definitely a conduit. So I think something that we and my colleagues at Jo Cox Foundation I find interesting is social media didn’t come off as much as we perhaps were expecting when we were talked.

16:47 – 17:10

We talked to various stakeholders actually, the the thing that came up in almost every conversation was political literacy and people that kind of a lack of understanding of what exactly and elected representatives are supposed to do. And that is something that’s a kind of longer-term recommendation that we have to kind of really increase the level of civic education.

17:10 – 17:38

I think there are other there’s other bigger issues in terms of increasing polarisation. And we saw that with the two referendums. We had the Scottish referendum and the Brexit referendum. And something that’s interesting is that colleagues, particularly in Scotland and Wales, talk about how nationalism, no matter, we’re going to what side of the issue you’re on, but that is a very key issue for them, you know, receiving abuse.

17:38 – 18:05

And I think also importantly at the local level, a lot of the abuse that councillors get is around planning decisions or pretty like hyper local controversial decisions. So I think, you know, there’s lots of different reasons why this is happening. And I think I know I’m a I’m a PhD student. So would any any other academics out there would really encourage more research to really kind of understand and some of the causes.

18:05 – 18:37

But I guess the main takeaway is that it is quite a complex problem with lots of different causes.

It’s political binary is part of the problem. So whether that’s down to education and understanding that even a binary isn’t that binary, but there have the incidences of political binary. So the nationalist were actually we didn’t pay anywhere near enough attention in the referendum in Scotland because it happened in Scotland.

18:37 – 19:20

And let’s face it, if it happened in Westminster would have been bigger news because it happened in Scotland. The binary that was created that then bred something political that we maybe hadn’t seen so clearly before. Because even if you think about like, you know, the biggest binary prior to that would have been the Iraq war or situation. And even that, whilst I have no doubt that I mean, in fact it’s not that I have no doubt I know like so Stephen Timms was stabbed over the Iraq war by a woman who was very, very unwell to to be clear like somebody who was very I think it was a woman, but somebody was very, very unwell.

19:20 – 19:42

But so so it did, it did create political violence and hostility. But the lack of civility, it was presented like, you know, I marched against Iraq with my mum and dad. It was presented always. And I recently found the letters my mum had written to her member of Parliament, who’s also our next door neighbour, and it was presented as sorrow and civility.

19:42 – 20:07

It wasn’t so the incivility, the first instance of it came, I think in the in the in the binary moment of the referendum. And we didn’t we didn’t mark it enough and we didn’t look into it, there wasn’t research done into it enough for it to then really inform how we might do other binary decision making or referenda the same afterwards.

20:07 – 20:40

And that, you know, hindsight’s a wonderful thing that I think was a massive failing. But the truth is from from my perspective is that the deliciousness of the incivility, which all politicians will stand up and say that they hate, they don’t hate it. They, it’s delicious and populism is delicious to politicians. So whilst, you know, they sweat the binary very, very, very, very, very often.

20:40 – 21:03

And we hand wring and say we don’t want we don’t want this and we don’t want that, but at the same time, we ourselves practice a wedge. Wedge, wedge, wedge wedge wedge. And even when things aren’t binary because we have seen the way that that binaries get dealt with, people try and create new binaries in a way that they just didn’t before.

21:03 – 21:30

So when things are really nuanced, and really complex, if you think of some of the equalities like that, the trans debate for example or even this that the process of protest versus legislating against protest. These are big issues that need proper discussion, but it’s politically expedient for the politicians to make them into a binary because binaries grab attention and make headlines.

21:30 – 21:50

So, you know, I’m not saying I’m not, I’ve been raised to not blame the victim. I’m not I’m not I’m not saying that when that turns into violence that we shouldn’t we shouldn’t act and have all of the things in place and that we shouldn’t talk about it. But I am saying there is a more fundamental issue about the idea of binary rather than nuance in our politics globally.

21:50 – 22:12

Can I take up on that point actually Jess, because, while Hannah, you mentioned political literacy the report also talks about improving behaviour, getting politicians to stick to the Nolan principles, screening candidates better, for example. But is there something inherent in our system? We are predominantly a two-party system. We use first past the post. It’s very adversarial.

22:12 – 22:35

It’s very much winner takes all. And I’m wondering if there’s something also inherent in the way that we do politics with first past the post that is also ratcheting up the tensions and then the abuse and intimidation of politicians as well. I don’t know, Jess, if you have thoughts on that or. Hannah?

Yeah, I mean, I, I think that you’re right.

22:35 – 23:01

We live essentially in a politically binary system with a two-party state. Same in the US, same I mean, in most parts of the world, although there have been actually populism has led to third parties rising in or the push against populism has led to that in France, for example, to a new political parties rising up. I understand that they don’t have a first past the post system.

23:01 – 23:35

I’m always really wary, especially at the moment of thinking that somehow a more proportionally representative system would make better politics. Because I give you Benjamin Netanyahu. So I mean, not that they have an actually, there is quite a lot of evidence that fringe elements of radicalism flourish more in a system where you are going to rely on a smaller party for votes for your government to take the lead.

23:35 – 24:02

So look, I’m not saying either one system is better. I am saying that it is. It’s not. I don’t think that just changing the way we vote will change this this now cultural incivility.

Hannah, one of the troubling stats in the report was that 16% of 18 to 24-year-olds thought abusive behaviour was acceptable compared to only 3% for those over 45.

24:02 – 24:19

And this is actually a question that’s also come in from the audience that if young people were hoping to get into politics or become MPs, particularly if they’re women, what we what we can do to encourage them to keep their hope. But I guess, first of all, this idea, there seems to be a shift in how young people think about or thinking about abuse and intimidation.

24:19 – 24:53

And I wondered what your findings were, if you could elaborate on those findings from the report.

Yes, absolutely. That research was actually carried out by the electoral commission Public Attitudes Survey in 2023. And they they did a big survey in a lot of different areas in politics that we we thought that one was particularly interesting because particularly like in the aftermath of the Brexit referendum, there has been this kind of, I guess, narrative that, okay, well, we will and it is kind of uncivil now, but a young people will come and it will be like all kind of better and civil.

24:53 – 25:12

And that’s not necessarily true, you know, in this report into that other research. And I know Jess has been involved in conversations about this point that points out that there is still kind of a bulk of misogyny in schools and attitudes, and there’s research about attitudes towards gender equality are not as progressive as you might expect amongst young people.

25:12 – 25:32

And so I guess I guess from our point of view, I would come back to that political literacy and the kind of it’s not just political literacy, but digital literacy. How do you conduct yourself online? How do you know? How do you conduct yourself online so you’re not being abusive? What do you do when you are abused online and when?

25:32 – 26:00

We are one of the organizations we worked with Shout Out UK, they are the convener of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Political Literacy, which came and Jo Cox’s sister is one of the chairs and Shout Out asked us, as they said to, it was like, when you say political literacy, say digital literacy as well. It’s really important that you have all of these different types of literacy and education are not take any kind of separate.

26:00 – 26:33

And I think I would add to that something around kind of equalities or kind of understanding power relations and all of that. And that’s more coming from my own, my own kind of academic background, looking at gender inequality in public life. But that kind of all of these kind of aspects really do interrelate. So I think I guess I guess in my advice to young people, I know Jess will have more to say about this, but I think it’s interesting because we’re talking about how the kind of how challenging it can be in the problems when you’re in politics, but also can be so impactful.

26:33 – 26:54

And, you know, we need lots of people in politics. And it’s very funny. I think a lot of the MPs and the councillors, other representatives that I’ve spoken to for my academic work, but also with part of the foundation, you know, they say like it’s really hard. You know, abuse has become more and more. It’s really polarised, but it’s the best job in the world.

26:54 – 27:24

You know, it’s a really interesting it’s a really it’s it’s always interesting conversations. But I would say that kind of I guess, like democracy needs more more, again, a diverse range of people in politics. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I would say I would say that the latter point is one that it’s important to stress. I think it’s also important to stress that I get way more fan mail than I get hate mail, but that doesn’t get written about I mean, I literally have to have special inboxes for the amount of fan mail that I get in my office.

27:24 – 27:47

If you could say it, like surrounded and literally like love bombs yesterday at like 11:20, when I got back to the flat that I live in in London, I went to the corner shop and there was a very tall, rowdy young man, must have been about 17, in the shop. And he was clearly mates with the shop and he was like, my God, you’re Jess Phillips.

27:47 – 28:10

And he described me as the G.O.A.T., which I believe means the greatest of all time. Now be with me is like, I love your videos like. And I was like, I didn’t know I had them. I didn’t know how these videos that you love, but apparently I do. And he was like, he just I mean, I mean, he was almost aggressively pleasant to me.

28:10 – 28:42

To an outsider, it may have seemed a bit overwhelming, but so just to stress that that like, you know, if you are a committed politician, especially if you are focused on really, really specifically on issues that really matter to you, and you can get that across passionately, which young people definitely feed off. I mean, clearly, you know, this young man called Danny and he clearly felt it that actually you get huge amounts of adoration and love.

28:42 – 29:22

And so that is the first thing I want to say. But what I would say with regard to the age, the age split is there is definitely an age split in the incivility. And for me, it is under forties and over forties. The difference is so marked. So before you know, on the binary issue currently of the the the the conflict in Gaza between Israel and Gaza and Hamas, the if I knock on doors in an area in my constituency that that, you know, are deeply, deeply invested in the plight of Palestinian people.

29:22 – 29:46

The difference in tone of the conversation, if somebody is over the age of 40 and if they are under the age of 40. Now, it’s not necessarily that they’re being abusive to me if they’re under the age of 40, but they are emotive in a way. And I think that a lot of this comes from the digital element that Hannah is talking about, is that they are sitting watching Tik Tok videos of horror.

29:47 – 30:08

I’m not even saying that it’s misinformation, is it, in lots of these cases, but that people have so much access to the ills of the world now, Whereas, you know, like when the Iraq war was happening, which I said, as I said, I marched against, I read, you know, you see it on the Six O’Clock News and I read accounts of it in the newspapers that were based on people’s opinion.

30:08 – 30:41

And actually, you knew that when you read something that you had to see it through the lens of it being someone’s opinion. If you scroll through Tik Tok or on Instagram Reels or whatever is your particular policy like from one horrifying video of a child being murdered to the next, horrifying video of a child being murdered to the next, to the next, it’s no wonder then, that somebody who you perceive, rightly or wrongly, as being in charge of that knocks on your door that you might be like ahh emotional.

30:41 – 31:06

So I’m not saying it’s abusive. It is. Sometimes it’s wrong. Like sometimes what people say is wrong. I’m not saying I’m getting a harrowing amount of abuse, but I am getting the difference in the temperature of the conversation is marks between people who are under the age of 40 and over the age of 40, and that is because of both political literacy, critical thinking, and digital literacy.

31:06 – 31:28

And so actually tackling those things is going to be really vitally important in that. Actually, I want a bit I want that group to turn the volume up a bit. You know, I like a bit of emotional volume on the greatest of all time. And the only reason that fella knew me is because I use emotional power in my interventions as a politician.

31:28 – 31:56

So you need I’m not saying it should go away, but it has to be placed it at the moment it feels so scattergun. People’s emotions are so scattergun that it feels like it hits everyone and like, you know, and misses the target. And that is problematic.

Following up on that, Jess, one of the questions from a question from Joan is whether we’re seeing the shift away from reasoned argument.

31:56 – 32:33

So she says it’s good to have some emotion perhaps in these arguments, but in these debates, but without that critical thinking, without that reasoned argument, that’s when it can sort of shoot off into more harmful directions.

Yeah, I mean, that’s definitely the case. I think that critical thinking and critical thought, I mean, even just forcing everybody to, like, play the devil’s advocate, like my my grandfather was mean to say staunch socialist wouldn’t cut it, but he used to read the telegraph because he used to jokingly say, I want to know what my enemies you know, you’ve got to know what the enemies are up to.

32:33 – 32:56

And but that like I definitely remember in my childhood that even though I came from very, very politically, one way family, that I was trained to assess the source material that I was reading, that I was saying, and to take some of it with a pinch of salt. Now, of course, you always have confirmation bias, and that’s always that’s human nature.

32:56 – 33:45

But the idea that, you know, like you can’t be critical, you can’t say, well, you would say that. So actually the effort of making children take on the devil’s advocate and also young people’s take on the devil’s advocate argument, I think has been has been partially lost like contraryism actually and teaching that is no bad thing to to try and see things from other people’s perspectives and have a critical glaze over Something I would say is it feels lesser in my children than it was in an also the idea and this is a sort of equalities gone mad, gonna sound like I’m on GB News, the idea that everything is for everyone and so it should

33:45 – 34:12

be. That’s not true in my view. This idea that certain people that everybody’s opinion matters equally well, it just simply doesn’t like, you know, to people who abuse me online about violence against women and girls like that, that they think that their opinion matters, that they have the same entitlement to an opinion as I do. However, they just simply like you don’t get to tell women what their experiences are.

34:12 – 34:36

You don’t get to tell black people what their experiences are like. This idea that everybody is equal and has equal understanding is a rot, an absolute rot. I wouldn’t do it to a doctor. I wouldn’t say to a doctor, I’ve broken my arm. And the doctor says, You’ve broken your arm. And I’ll be like oh you would say that you would say that.

34:36 – 35:05

But actually I think I haven’t broken my arm, it’s something else. And yet that is the experience in this sort of idea that everybody’s opinion should be listened to.

So we’ve got quite, thanks Jess. So we’ve got quite a few questions coming in and maybe one going back to you, Hannah, from another Hannah, is a if you could elaborate a bit more on the of how do we address the abuse and harassment of councillors at the local level.

35:05 – 35:35

So again, as you were saying, well, we tend to focus more on what’s happening at Westminster. There’s other levels of abuse and intimidation which seem to have less protection like local councillors.

Yes, absolutely. It’s a it’s a really crucial point. And we worked extensively with the Local Government Association and the National Association of Local Councils and the LGA and NALC, they have the LGA has a Debate Not Hate project with lots of resources and then that and NALC has a Civility and Respect project.

35:35 – 36:14

So there is really, really great work happening on a local level and we support the recommendations in the in those pieces of work. And some of the recommendations, for example, are that councils should pass motions affirming principles to address abuse and model good behaviour. Having that kind of on the as a priority as part of the council. And and we also believe that local authority should secure that the security and wellbeing resources are available to councillors, that they’re clearly signposted, that councillors know where to go if they’ve experienced some, if they have experienced something, they have the security resources, but also that kind of wellbeing support.

36:14 – 36:41

I think that that’s something that we try to emphasise in all parts of the report and we also that other recommendations specifically for local authorities is improving that risk planning for for abuse of council at Council meetings, because that is something that came up with a lot of the councillors we spoke to. That it is it is council meetings that a lot of this a lot of these problems can arise, particularly those being a controversial planning issue or so on.

36:41 – 37:12

And you know, in the news this week, it’s likely that, you know, authorities are facing funding pressures. So that those type of issues can be really, really important and can be really to abuse at local issue, at a local level and a yes. But they make their main takeaway is to support and have experts in. And, you know, as Jess was alluding to the experts in this issue, the Local Government Association and the National Association of Local Councils.

37:12 – 37:40

One question that’s come up a few times in the chat is what do you think our chances are of a of a civil election campaign this year?

Zero

Do you want to elaborate a bit on that, Jess?

Absolutely zero chance of a civil, I mean, we had a debate about the well, in the International Women’s Day debate, it was it was couched in terms of like language used against women politicians last week.

37:40 – 38:02

And it was a brilliant moment at the end where Caroline Nokes she was a brilliant woman, not from my political tradition, but a brilliant woman, said. She said, well, I intend to go into this election and not and not be racist, not to be sexist, not to be vile, and not to lie about opponents. And to be honest, it won’t be hard.

38:02 – 38:41

Like that’s the lowest of bars like that. But no, no, the election won’t be civil for a number of reasons, and some of them should be able to be controlled. Some of them we have not come up with manner of. So you always get sort of third-party seemingly external campaign lobby groups that are definitely linked to like either a local candidate or a political party.

38:41 – 38:58

So, I mean, Brexit, we saw a huge amount of this on relatively all sides, like just sort of like shadily, not quite knowing. And one of the principles of political campaigning is if you say something, you have to say that you’ve said it. That’s a that’s a basic principle. You literally have to write on the bottom of every leaflet that it was.

38:58 – 39:19

You even who, you know, like this is Jess Phillips and this is the address. Obviously, it’s not my real address, although it used to have to be. That’s one of the things that had to change and certainly was for councillors. I had to put my address on the ballot paper. Ridiculous. So like that, that bit needs considerably better control.

39:19 – 39:41

And I have to say the electoral commission in this space just doesn’t have the teeth that is necessary or the resource or, you know, or the political will pushing it to do better in this particular space, I have to say. So I don’t expect. But what what I don’t what I mean, we will have like the Security Minister standing up and talking about incivility.

39:41 – 40:18

If you think that there are political parties at the moment who are delighted with the binary about, for example, the war in Israel, Gaza between Israel and Gaza, if you think that that isn’t going to be sweated by, whether it’s clandestine or otherwise, funding to independent candidates to stand in areas to squeeze votes, then I’m afraid to say you are living in a fantasy world that the binary and the aggression that some people will face will absolutely be sweated by main political parties.

40:18 – 40:45

And that that’s the thing that is unforgivable. That’s that if the rhetoric from leaders of political movements in no way matches the way and they don’t get their own hands dirty with this. But believe me, people’s hands are dirty and everybody’s sorry when it goes badly wrong and someone gets killed. But the reality is is that is absolutely that goes on.

40:46 – 41:08

And whether it’s direct or indirect it is made fertile rather than actually planted by people. But all of those things have to be dealt with. Also, we’ve got the issue of fakery. Fakery is going to be and and whether you know, when it happens to Keir Starmer and there was some fake video of him made slagging off Liverpool or whatever and it sounded really real and that is a real worry.

41:08 – 41:31

But literally all of the Conservatives, it was actually the Conservatives I saw spreading that it wasn’t real, not that it was real. They were saying no this is wrong, this is don’t spread this, this is shit like don’t do it. Like that, that at that level that happens. What what happens to people like me is fake stuff is made it isn’t spread by, you know, mainstream political parts

41:32 – 41:55

of the movement its spread around on, you know, unknown WhatsApp groups and this, that and the other. And and then people believe it to be the case and then that causes attacks on me, so the sort of fakery that goes on. I mean I had I had somebody come and speak to me once, you know I’m no defender of Benjamin Netanyahu as I think I’ve made clear on this in my remarks.

41:55 – 42:23

But they just kept saying to me, he said, I’ve watched a video online of Benjamin Netanyahu beheading a Palestinian child. Now I don’t like the man. That isn’t true. It just isn’t true. And that there is bad faith actors and some of them are state actors like Russia, Iran, like we know that there are state actors cause in this disinformation and fakery to go on.

42:23 – 42:46

But it it rocks up on my doorstep. Not on Rishi Sunak’s or Kier Starmer’s, it rocks up on my doorstep. And that that’s alarming. So no, I don’t think there’s I mean, we’ll all try and be civil. Maybe if it’s quick if we could just a bit like in May and they just announced it like three weeks before, Just make it really quick, quick and dirty will be less dirty than before.

42:46 – 43:04

Can you give us a heads up, Jess? When’s the goss? They’re still not letting us know.

I think it’ll be May.

You think May? Wow okay, great.

And Melissa, can I just add something on it because Jess said we’ll try. And I, if you go on to Jo Cox Foundation Twitter, you see we’ve got our Civility Pledge and that’s for candidates to sign.

43:04 – 43:28

And of course, it’s a it’s a it’s a small is a small action, a small recommendation, but it is designed to be one of many things that happen and one of the other one other of our recommendations that’s actually been already implemented is that the government should make costs associated with candidate safety and exemption to election spending. So that is sometimes something that’s happening.

43:28 – 43:54

And another another sorry, another recommendation that I should have mentioned in terms of local government, is this part as part of that new funding announced by the government, also included extension extending the police support that Operation Bridger network which is the a local coordinated network of police officers. It’s currently only for MPs extending that and to councillors as well and that is something that we had called for.

43:54 – 44:17

So we were pleased by that. So a couple of you can have hopeful a hopeful election, you know, bits of progress.

And certainly the Jo Cox, the Jo Cox Civility Pledge. Hannah, how are you approaching politicians? Have many signed up to that yet?

I believe so. I should have…

I think most of them probably would.

I think most of it most people have.

44:17 – 44:46

They want the ones specifically united for the May local elections, and it will be before the national election, too, if that is announced. And but we do most politicians do sign up for it.

The trouble is, if you sign it, you can’t then call somebody standing in one of those elections in ad hoc to Islamists, for example, just, you know, to pull an example that’s not very civil is it like not was directly directly because you know, there is an election and it’s just so horrible when there’s an election.

44:46 – 45:17

I mean, if only democracy wasn’t the best of a bad system. Elections should be banned, they’re awful.

I should say one of the projects we’re working here at Cumberland Lodge on Youth and Democracy is to work with young people to reimagine democracy for the 21st century. So please, if people are interested in that, yes, stay in touch, because that’s something I think all the feedback we get from young people that we’re working with is that they want a different system, something that perhaps is more civil, that is a bit kinder to use those emotional words as well.

45:17 – 45:43

It’s got a bit more love front and centre. Finally, what would you say to that young woman that wants to go into politics, that today, tomorrow there’s an election coming up. She wants to get involved in Conservative politics or Lib Dem or SNP or Labour, whatever. What what do you say to her to to to try and encourage her to keep going?

45:43 – 46:16

I mean, I have changed something now, probably about 25 laws that have made women and children, or will when they’re properly realised, make women and children safer. And there is no feeling in the world, there is no feeling in the world like that when a minister I mean, obviously better to be in government, but when a minister who was even says were given in, Jess, you can have it. Is one of those moments where you, and you never you never get credit for it afterwards because it was the government that did it.

46:17 – 46:43

The, but those moments are the best feeling in the world when you work towards something that you really deeply care about and you start to see it coming to fruition. And the only reason that these laws exist is not because I’m brilliant in any particular way is because I am a woman who is exposed to the things that women are exposed to.

46:43 – 47:12

And I brought that with me to Parliament and that changed the world like that. That is fundamental. The idea that you cannot change things is literally a lie told by people who already hold all the power and don’t want you to take it. You can absolutely change things. Things can and everything that ever change that is good in my life changed by ordinary people campaigning for it.

47:12 – 47:35

And the best example, I mean, obviously I can vote. I can’t just be voted for, I can vote. I’m pretty grateful to the people who sat around in dusty church halls drinking tea out of broken cups who, you know, sort of plotted the campaigns to make sure that that happened. I’m grateful to them for my liberty. But the best example I can come up with is the weekend.

47:35 – 48:03

Like, if anyone’s ever going to come up with a better policy than the weekend, I’d like to hear it. That’s the best thing that’s ever been done. Ever. Like the weekend and don’t take it for granted. The weekend doesn’t exist in China, for example, like the weekend, pretty spesh. And that was largely invented by people sat in canteens, working in factories who got together and thought it’d be nice if we didn’t have to go to work every single day.

48:03 – 48:27

And they fought political campaigns alongside political campaigners and they changed the way that every single one of us lives our lives for the better. Like that is the only encouragement you should need is that you might be the person who comes up with something that’s better than the weekend. I just and you can’t just say extend it because you know you have a new idea the weekend.

48:27 – 48:51

Imagine coming up with a weekend. That’s the reason to enter politics, you could invent the weekend.

Well on that very optimistic leisure-oriented note, I’d like to thank our two guests, Hannah Phillips and Jess Phillips, for the discussion this afternoon. We will be we have been recording the discussion, so it will be available as a podcast on the website as well.

48:51 – 49:12

If anyone listening is interested in our work on Youth and Democracy or the other events that we have here at Cumberland Lodge, please feel free to follow us on social media. We’ve been talking about the downside of social media a little bit this afternoon, but it does also have some good sides to it as well. And and one is following us @CumberlandLodge or you can subscribe to our newsletter on the website as well.

49:12 – 49:19

But in but for now, I’d just again like to thank Hannah and Jess for your time this afternoon and stay safe out there as well.